|
Author
|
Topic: Covid-19 cases state by state
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-02-2020 03:19 PM
It appears to me the whole country should open up expect maybe NYC and probably the area in New Jersey closes to NYC. One death is too many but dumping our economy in a never ending abyss, is frightening.
Govts of Maine, Michigan and California have turned into dictators imv!
This crisis has turned political big time!
https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/health/coronavirus-us-maps-and-cases
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-02-2020 03:40 PM
as a follow up to my previous.
State Control - Why people are protesting at the state level.
When the State tells you it's safe to go to Home Depot to buy a sponge but dangerous to go and buy a flower, it's not about your health.
When the State shuts down millions of private businesses but doesn’t lay off a single government employee, it's not about your health.
When the State bans dentists because its unsafe, but deems abortion visit is safe, it's not about your health.
When the State prevents you from buying cucumber seeds because it's dangerous, but allows in person lottery ticket sales, it's not about your health.
When the State tells you it's dangerous to go golf alone, fish alone or be in a motor boat alone, but the Governor can get his stage make up done, and hair done for 5 TV appearances a week, it's not about your health.
When the state puts you IN a jail cell you for walking in a park with your child because it’s too dangerous but lets criminals OUT of jail cells for their health- It’s not about YOUR health!
When the state tells you it’s too dangerous to get treated by a doctor of chiropractic or physical therapy treatments yet deems a liquor store essential- It’s not about your health!
When the State lets you go to the grocery store or hardware store but is demanding mail-in voting, ITS NOT ABOUT YOUR HEALTH.
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MEL
Player
Member # 141
|
posted 05-02-2020 03:46 PM
Sooooooo true ukc
Colorado has just joined a pact with other states over covid19 but says it is science based and not political based !!! Hmmm anytime anyone says it isn't about the money it is about the money !!!
These states don't want to work with the Federal Govt because they each know what is best for their state but then join a pact with Democratic states … no Rep states involved … it's political !!!
The states involved in the Western Alliance State Pact are Colorado, Oregon, Nevada, Washington and California.
MEL
[ 05-02-2020, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: MEL ]
Posts: 2793 | From: Greeley, CO, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MEL
Player
Member # 141
|
posted 05-02-2020 04:19 PM
MM … I don't know exactly what we should be doing but to say it is ok to get an abortion and get alcohol but can't go to the dentist or a chiropractor is totally insane IMHO !!! People don't have to have alcohol but some sure do need chiropractic work done on their bodies. I work for a store that sells guns and they are doing very well in that department but why does everyone need a gun or in most cases at our store more guns now rather than other times ??? Alcohol and guns along with other things don't belong together.
MM did you check out the you tube link I mentioned in another topic ??? Food for thought.
MEL
Posts: 2793 | From: Greeley, CO, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 05-02-2020 06:42 PM
Indiana will allow most businesses to open on Monday, but limit "capacity" to 50% (and 25% in "public spaces".. what the hell does that mean?). So it looks like restaurants can open back up as long as they space customers out.
Bars, nursing homes and gyms will stay closed.
It is a start. I sure hope that people will use common sense, and not go out if you are high-risk or already sick. But, that won't happen...
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 01:12 PM
Well if something more positive is not done soon, the despair and then suicides' will overtake the deaths in some states. Not opening up our economy is nothing but crazy and political!
The state level better get their act together before it is too late!
As mentioned before, the democrat's see this crisis as their last effort to win in Nov and they will "milk" it for all its worth!
[ 05-03-2020, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 01:24 PM
I deleted my last post accidentally...if I can remember what I said I'll re-post!
If I can't remember, it was probably a lie. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 01:58 PM
Ed:
quote:
The state level better get their act together before it is too late!
It's already too late on the state level...what else can they do?
Maybe we could ask Jared? He has this shadow covid-response team, who's activities are secret, btw.
Can anybody reasonably explain to me why Son-In-Law is even involved in this?
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 02:22 PM
"it's already too late on the state level...what else can they do"
For one - they could open up the state and attempt to get their economy back up and running!
For two - they could stop making this a political event like Maine, Mich, Calif and others are doing!
FEMA is the lead on the national response along with the Military and others. Perhaps you could explain what you know on the son-in-law participation?
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 02:27 PM
I did find this on Kushner -his logistical role
something wrong with that?
The role: Politico reports that over the last two-plus weeks, Kushner "has emerged as perhaps the most pivotal figure in the national fight against the fast-growing pandemic." If VP Mike Pence is leading an "all-of-government" task force, Kushner is leading more of an "all-of-private-sector" outfit. Among other things, Kushner's team is "working alongside government officials from FEMA, HHS, and USAID to solve a range of logistical and technical challenges" and "has stepped in to coordinate decision-making at agencies including the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services," per Politico.
Nothing SECRET about that as many articles on it!
[ 05-03-2020, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-03-2020 02:48 PM
I thought I heard that none of the states that are easing restrictions have met the guidelines set by the federal government to start scaling back. Am I wrong about this?
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 03:52 PM
Ed:
quote:
I did find this on Kushner -his logistical role
something wrong with that?
The role: Politico reports that over the last two-plus weeks, Kushner "has emerged as perhaps the most pivotal figure in the national fight against the fast-growing pandemic." If VP Mike Pence is leading an "all-of-government" task force, Kushner is leading more of an "all-of-private-sector" outfit. Among other things, Kushner's team is "working alongside government officials from FEMA, HHS, and USAID to solve a range of logistical and technical challenges" and "has stepped in to coordinate decision-making at agencies including the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services," per Politico.
And his qualifications dealing with deadly pandemics are?
quote:
I thought I heard that none of the states that are easing restrictions have met the guidelines set by the federal government to start scaling back. Am I wrong about this?
That is correct!....not a single one!
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 04:01 PM
Business man - well know person - ear of the President - able to get all facets of responses fm people on same page - we are talking logistics here not science!
Unfortunately MM it doesn't appear that you can see anything but "bad" in anything or anyone associated with this administration. Perhaps it clouds your judgement on all things Trump?
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-03-2020 04:18 PM
Ukcatfan, but aren’t the states,Republican and Democrat Governor’s, going against what the president wants?
[ 05-03-2020, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 04:20 PM
some are and some aren't handy nothing uniform
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 04:21 PM
Ed:
quote:
Unfortunately MM it doesn't appear that you can see anything but "bad" in anything or anyone associated with this administration. Perhaps it clouds your judgement on all things Trump?
I don't trust Trump any more than I would a rattlesnake...
Ed:
quote:
some are and some aren't handy nothing uniform
Do you know which states are and which states aren't going against Trump?
[ 05-04-2020, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: MountainMafia ]
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-03-2020 04:24 PM
I just edited my post to say both Democratic and Republican governors are doing this. At least it seems that way too me. .You don’t think he could be saying one thing but doing another do you?
Of course not, I just answered my own question. That would be playing politics and we all know Trump isn’t a politician, he’s a businessman.
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
m hamilton
Player
Member # 127
|
posted 05-03-2020 05:20 PM
Can someone explain to me why, when I just got through reading the CDC website, they are saying that the number of deaths in our country due to Corona have been drastically multiplied?
According to their numbers as of 4 pm this afternoon there were around 37,000 people who have actually died from Covid-19.
It gives a state by state total where most of them in our area are drastically lower than the numbers being posted on the national news!
www.CDC.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/
[ 05-03-2020, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: m hamilton ]
--------------------
The potus is planning 1st major tax hike since '93 in next economic package!
I still can't believe some people believed that LIAR!!!
Your whole life is determined(by) 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you handle it!!!
Posts: 123969 | From: vevay, IN USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 08:29 PM
Tip:
quote:
It is a start. I sure hope that people will use common sense, and not go out if you are high-risk or already sick. But, that won't happen...
The biggest risk is if there is a “rebound” breakout that causes another lockdown...people won’t know what to do next! Who do you trust after that?
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-03-2020 08:45 PM
mh:
quote:
According to their numbers as of 4 pm this afternoon there were around 37,000 people who have actually died from Covid-19
There is a lag time between when the death occurs and when the death is reported to the CDC...as much as two weeks. Thus, CDC reporting is not updated.
[ 05-03-2020, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: MountainMafia ]
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-03-2020 11:01 PM
M ham the link that I posted in my 1st post gives u a link to click and it supposed to update every 15 mins..
state by state cases and deaths
[ 05-03-2020, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 01:22 PM
Just heard Trump say that Dr Fauci could not testify in the HoR but could in the Senate because Democrats wanted people to die to win an election.
What a pathetic thing to say. But when it comes to blaming....nothing is too pathetic for Trump!
Liberate Fauci! Liberate the Truth!
[ 05-05-2020, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: MountainMafia ]
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
clydeh
Player
Member # 7
|
posted 05-05-2020 01:45 PM
Somewhere, sometime, on this board I posted my concern about the HYPE regarding covid-19. I suspect (but don't know) that the number of monthly deaths in this country is not much more than last year or the year before.
Posts: 845 | From: Cullman, AL, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-05-2020 02:09 PM
As a follow up - the website that I posted in the 1st thread of this website does update very quickly. Cases and deaths figures are current whenever you log on it..
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 02:38 PM
Dr Clyde:
quote:
that the number of monthly deaths in this country is not much more than last year or the year befor
I’m not sure about what you’re saying?
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
clydeh
Player
Member # 7
|
posted 05-05-2020 03:23 PM
M.M.
I haven't checked on any reliable death data for the last few years, but many people die every day in this country.
I wonder if some of the news is being promoted by the Republicans concerning how few deaths we are having and by the Democrats about how many deaths we are having. Both sides need to be blaming and praising someone.
Posts: 845 | From: Cullman, AL, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-05-2020 03:27 PM
I saw today where the White House is going to wind down the coronavirus task force within the next month. I believe they have done an ok job or at least as well as can be expected.
The fear of a shortage of ventilators, hospitals being overwhelmed etc did not happen. I believe this is the result of this task force and the President.
Food for thought. Over 3,280 deaths occur every day from car accidents in this country. We have rules and regulations associated with driving a car but deaths still occur. I’m thinking it’s time to open things up a bit.
[ 05-05-2020, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-05-2020 04:07 PM
Common Flu
and these figures are with a flu vaccine!
Seasonal flu kills 291,000 to 646,000 people worldwide each year, according to a new estimate that's higher than the previous one of 250,000 to 500,000 deaths a year.
The new figures from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other groups were published Dec. 13 in The Lancet medical journal.
The updated numbers, which do not include deaths during flu pandemics, are based on more recent data from a larger and more diverse group of countries than the previous estimate, the CDC said.
The data came from 33 countries that have 57 percent of the world's population and had seasonal flu numbers for a minimum of four years between 1999 and 2015. That information was used to create an estimate of flu-related respiratory deaths in 185 countries worldwide.
The study found that the risk of flu-related death was highest in the poorest regions of the world and among older adults.
"These findings remind us of the seriousness of flu and that flu prevention should really be a global priority," study co-author Dr. Joe Bresee, associate director for global health in CDC's Influenza Division, said in a CDC news release.
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-05-2020 04:09 PM
Common Flu deaths in the U.S. 2019
CDC: 80,000 people died of flu last winter in U.S., highest death toll in 40 years
with a vaccine
More than this latest pandemic (so far)
This has become a Political event with certain states begging for bail outs.
Our Economy is suffering and in fact and to make it worse -
Nancy Pelosi has already said that she is getting together agenda items ready to include in the next bail out bill...
[ 05-05-2020, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
clydeh
Player
Member # 7
|
posted 05-05-2020 05:02 PM
ukcatfannfl
Somewhere on this board a few weeks ago I mentioned if the "treatment was worse than the disease".
Posts: 845 | From: Cullman, AL, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 05:08 PM
“Food for thought. Over 3,280 deaths occur every day from car accidents in this country. We have rules and regulations associated with driving a car but deaths still occur. I’m thinking it’s time to open things up a bit”
How often does 70, 000 Americans die in 3 months with plenty more to come?
quote:
The fear of a shortage of ventilators, hospitals being overwhelmed etc did not happen. I believe this is the result of this task force and the President.
This fear was based on CDC models and projections. It did not happen because of the measures the states took. I honestly don’t know what Trump has done, but I’m willing to listen.
quote:
I saw today where the White House is going to wind down the coronavirus task force within the next month. I believe they have done an ok job or at least as well as can be expected.
Might as well...Trump has basically sequestered them anyway.
Correction: Make that 70,000 deaths in 2 months...first confirmed death was March 1st.
hc,
I know we have to do something about the economy...we have to! I just think the way it is being done will turn a disaster into a nightmare.
[ 05-05-2020, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: MountainMafia ]
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
ukcatfannfl
Player
Member # 1425
|
posted 05-05-2020 05:16 PM
"This fear was based on CDC models and projections. It did happen because of the measures the states took. I honestly don’t know what Trump has done, but I’m willing to listen.
no you aren't!!
This statement by you is all anyone needs to know you vis - vis Trump.
"I don't trust Trump any more than I would a rattlesnake..."
"
--------------------
ukcatfannfl
Posts: 8771 | From: Inverness, FL | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MEL
Player
Member # 141
|
posted 05-05-2020 05:19 PM
quote:
The fear of a shortage of ventilators, hospitals being overwhelmed etc did not happen. I believe this is the result of this task force and the President.
This fear was based on CDC models and projections. It did happen because of the measures the states took. I honestly don’t know what Trump has done, but I’m willing to listen.
-------------------------------
So I guess the federal government didn't send any ventilators or supplies to any states (then why did some of the governors say thank you to him for helping them ???) and the states stopped all travel from China ??? The Dems first said President Trump was a racist for banning travel from China then weeks later said he didn't do it soon enough !!! Enough said … the Dems ***** about everything President Trump does not matter what it is !!! If he said the sky is blue they would ***** that he didn't say the right shade of blue.
MEL
[ 05-05-2020, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: MEL ]
Posts: 2793 | From: Greeley, CO, USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 05:59 PM
MEL:
quote:
So I guess the federal government didn't send any ventilators or supplies to any states (then why did some of the governors say thank you to him for helping them ???)
They did indeed, but only after the governors begged, pleaded, and eventually did what they had to do...get down on their knees...and be, you know, "appreciative"!
quote:
The Dems first said President Trump was a racist for banning travel from China then weeks later said he didn't do it soon enough !!! Enough said
True enough. So, after that?
quote:
the Dems ***** about everything President Trump does not matter what it is !!! If he said the sky is blue they would ***** that he didn't say the right shade of blue.
Not all Democrats feel that way, MEL...as I'm sure that all Republicans don't feel the exact opposite.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-05-2020 06:01 PM
quote:
Correction: Make that 70,000 deaths in 2 months...first confirmed death was March 1st.
M&M, if both my math and statement are correct about the number of death’s by car accidents, over 180, 000 people died in automobile accidents in that same time period.
We can’t stop driving and we simply cannot continue to keep the economy shut down, at least IMO. I believe the economy should start reopening with rules and regulations in place. A small dose of common sense would also be helpful.
Because of age and other existing health conditions, my wife and I will, in all probability, continue to shelter in place. At least for the foreseeable future. IMO, that doesn’t mean that everyone else should do so.
We will just have to disagree on this.
By the way, I seriously doubt you dislike or distrust Donald Trump any more than I do.
[ 05-05-2020, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 06:06 PM
Ed:
quote:
CDC: 80,000 people died of flu last winter in U.S., highest death toll in 40 years
Covid ain't done yet...just getting started, imo.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 06:29 PM
Ed:
quote:
"This fear was based on CDC models and projections. It did happen because of the measures the states took. I honestly don’t know what Trump has done, but I’m willing to listen.
no you aren't!!
This statement by you is all anyone needs to know you vis - vis Trump.
"I don't trust Trump any more than I would a rattlesnake..."
Me:
quote:
"I don't trust Trump any more than I would a rattlesnake..."
That's how I feel, Ed...what can I say?
quote:
I’m willing to listen.
If I didn't want to listen I wouldn't post on this board...that don't mean I have to agree with what I'm hearing.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 05-05-2020 06:45 PM
Everybody, my bad. Only 90 people a day die in the U S. Number I was quoting was world wide. Doesn’t change my mind about reopening. Damn good thing no one pays attention to my posts.
My know it all wife told me that can’t be correct.😊
[ 05-05-2020, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 05-05-2020 07:13 PM
Plus hc, car recks ain't catching!
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
|
posted 05-05-2020 07:20 PM
Stupidity must be.
--------------------
Pray For Our Country!
Posts: 36266 | From: Western KY | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic