TheCatsDomain.Com Message Boards: Socialism

This is topic Socialism - what to expect in forum Civil Debate - Politics and Other Hot Button Topics at TheCatsDomain.Com Message Boards.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.thecatsdomain.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=38;t=002462

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-22-2020, 05:50 PM:

if the hard left gets elected from someone who has been there and experienced it...

This is a simple but profound statement from a retired captain with MDPD. He got out of Cuba as part of the Peter Pan effort in the early 60's. He lived through the transition between Batista and Castro---until his parents got him out.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Anthony Socarras <tony.socarras@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 3:25 PM
Subject: Americans getting a taste of Socialism. An opinion from someone with personal experience
To:

We Americans are now getting a taste of what is like to live in a “Socialist Paradise” ......No theaters, no restaurants, empty supermarkets, restricted travel...it’s like living in Cuba or Venezuela but with a cough!

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 05:40 AM:

Everybody is a socialist when it comes to a pandemic.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 09:04 AM:

Nope.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 09:38 AM:

How do you suggest we deal with the pandemic?

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 10:05 AM:

It comes down to worldview. I believe in limited government and the amazing ability of free individuals to find solutions. Unfortunately, we are following the rest of the world's lead, and the rest of the world is not like us. Europe leans heavily socialist, China and Singapore have autocratic governments.

Ultimately, Trump's attempts at slashing red tape and unleashing free enterprise will prove more effective than anything the government could do. Yet, we are already deep into waiting for the idiots in Washington to "save us".

Funny, how we pretty much all agree that Washington is completely disfunctional, yet we think they can engineer massive changes from the top down.

Posted by MEL (Member # 141) on 03-23-2020, 10:12 AM:

Amen Tip !!!

MEL

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 10:43 AM:

Tip:

quote:
I believe in limited government and the amazing ability of free individuals to find solutions.

We have a solution...containment, and until we have a vaccine it's the only solution. Like any wildfire, you contain it and then put it out.

quote:
Unfortunately, we are following the rest of the world's lead

I agree....we didn't take it seriously enough early enough. It's been 8 weeks since the first confirmed case in the US and we're not even close to being prepared. And that is just for the level of infection we have now....it's going to get much, much worse.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 10:51 AM:

I read an analyst's predictions based upon a particular economic model that suggests that because of the self-isolation and the massive debt that the government is willingly taking on to inject liquidity and cash into the economy, we could see 30% unemployment (worse than the Great Depression!) and a whopping 50% drop in GDP.

That kind of shock cannot be recovered from. The United States might just become what Obama so desperately wanted... "just another country".

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-23-2020, 12:32 PM:

Even though Tip I also believe that once this pandemic is under control that this "capitalist's" country will recover at very very rapid rate as our infrastructure is in place unlike when a natural disaster i.e. hurricane occurs.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 12:39 PM:

I sure hope so, Ed.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-23-2020, 12:42 PM:

me too mm

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 01:20 PM:

This has nothing to do with infrastructure. It has to do with an impact to the economy that will send us into a long, long tailspin. Katrina hit a few states hard, and then there was rebuilding. This will be nationwide, even worldwide. We can't just rebuild lost houses and fix levees... our entire economic engine may grind to a halt.

If, as the President of the Saint Louis fed predicted, we DO hit 30% unemployment and get a 50% hit to GDP, businesses will close forever, demand will plummet, manufacturers and major retailers will close... it will be ugly, and the recovery will not be fast.

It has the potential to be worse than the 1930s. It is a horrifying example of "the cure is worse than the illness".

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 02:15 PM:

Tip:

quote:
It is a horrifying example of "the cure is worse than the illness".

Even more horrifying would be to treat people as "collateral damage" or the "price of doing business".

So, what do you do?

[ 03-23-2020, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: MountainMafia ]

Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 03-23-2020, 02:30 PM:

It is a horrifying example of "the cure is worse than the illness".

Tip, are you suggesting we should do nothing? I don’t mean that to sound like an accusation.

I know this sounds harsh but I’m beginning to think we should limit our response.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 03:06 PM:

Every day, doctors and families must choose between saving a life and incurring enormous expenses, or doing less.

This is the same painful discussion writ large.

I don't know the right answer. I do not know if the predictions of economic disaster are correct. I do not know if we, as a nation, have the national character to pull through this crisis with unity of purpose and action. Too many things can go wrong in either choice.

But, to blindly "save lives" today with no regard for tomorrow seems too short-sighted. We hear the panic and terror in the voices and in the writings of those pulling the levers to shut everything down to stop the spread of this disease. But quieter voices are also speaking of the consequences of all of this. I know Trump and Pence have started saying things that indicate they, too, are worried about the cost to the nation of going all-in to stop this disease. The St Louis Fed president has issued a very bleak prediction. Others are saying similar things.

I wish I knew the right answer. I don't. But I think we all need to be prepared for what is likely to follow the current course of action.

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-23-2020, 03:08 PM:

What I'm worrying most about is the government spending 2-4 trillion $ for things not necessary. We will never get back on our feet if they do. Send money to those that are laid off, but that's all.

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-23-2020, 03:10 PM:

Actually, I have more money in my pocket than usual. Can't get out and go anywhere to spend it!

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 03:16 PM:

hc:

quote:

I know this sounds harsh but I’m beginning to think we should limit our response.

So far it has been.

Guys, we are going to pay dearly if we don't throw everything we have at containing this monster.

Factories close, people sent home from work, unemployment skyrockets, churches not holding services, rising public fear and anxiety, etc, etc, all have one thing in common... they spread on the back of this virus.

We do not have a choice! If we want our economy to recover we have to stop this virus before it severely cripples it, or even worse...kills it off.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-23-2020, 03:17 PM:

But, MM... those measures are not because of the virus, those are the efforts taken to CONTROL the virus.

Those efforts will have devastating effects.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-23-2020, 03:36 PM:

one word "scary"

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-23-2020, 03:38 PM:

Tip:

quote:
those are the efforts taken to CONTROL the virus.

Yeah, but...no virus, no need for controls.

quote:
Those efforts will have devastating effects.

They're already having devastating effects. The longer C-19 is spreading...the bigger it gets...the worse it's going to be for everyone.