TheCatsDomain.Com Message Boards: Tariffs.

This is topic Tariffs. in forum Civil Debate - Politics and Other Hot Button Topics at TheCatsDomain.Com Message Boards.

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Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 03-08-2018, 04:28 PM:

I'm wondering what others think about the proposed tariffs. I change my mind about every 5 minutes. At first I was 100% for this but I keep hearing conflicting opinions. Kind of scares me that so many Republicans are opposed to this. On the surface it seems to me this is only fair but that's coming from someone who is clueless about about this kind of stuff.

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-08-2018, 06:39 PM:

All I knw is, if we are forced to go to war, it will take more steel and aluminum than we can produce right now. I'd like to see our home grown production increased to a point that we didn't have to depend on others if possible. In my humble opinion, globalization is not a good idea. I know that ideally, all being brothers would be Utopia, but it all started falling apart with Cain and Abel and has never healed over.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-08-2018, 06:48 PM:

Well, I can see merit with both sides. The reason most aluminum and steel are imported is because they can make it cheaper than we can. So, if you don't mind paying significantly more for your cars and boats and pots and pans... It is OK.

I agree that having sufficient domestic production is good thing for strategic and defense purposes. But free trade is better for us consumers.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-08-2018, 08:45 PM:

in one word unions

thats why it is cheaper else where

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 03-08-2018, 09:03 PM:

I am not that well versed in the fairness or unfairness of the world in regards to trade with the US.

I have read, over the years, that many countries protect their own country a lot more than the US protects its own interests.

The US has been the ***** to the rest of the world in regards to trade and immigration.

Open markets to the US but do nothing about the restrictions that other countries impose.

I always want the interest of this county put before any other country. The immigration issue is one of the major reasons why I am all in for Trump. The fact that he is imposing tarrifs to protect this country, makes me in his corner even more, if that is possible.

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 03-08-2018, 09:04 PM:

Wow, wasnt aware the B word is banned on this site, a common term for a female dog.

Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 03-08-2018, 09:41 PM:

quote:
in one word unions

thats why it is cheaper else where

--------------------

No unions in China as far as I know so I guess that could be the reason their products are so much cheaper than ours.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-09-2018, 12:01 AM:

China is one big union you get paid what we decide says the govt

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-09-2018, 07:22 AM:

China used to be that way, Ed. But despite retaining an increasingly autocratic communistic government, their economy has become remarkably free-market oriented.

The Chinese government still maintains the power to shut down or strangle-by-regulation any business it chooses, and many of the larger chinese companies are essentially state-sponsored enterprises, but not all. That is why you have greater wealth inequality in China than here, in the US. Vast numbers of Chinese living in the rugged, non-industrialized interior live on less that $5 per day. But in cities like Shanghai and other coastal cities, there is tremendous wealth. This isn't Mao's China any more!

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-09-2018, 07:30 AM:

There are two reasons that China can produce commodity items like steel cheaper than we can. One is semi-skilled labor is MUCH cheaper in China than in the US, and the other is that up until just recently, China willingly and happily ignored the safety and environmental problems caused by poorly regulated industries. If a Chinese company can hire labor at a fraction of the cost of a US company, AND they don't have to pay to comply with environmental or safety regulations, then of course they can make steel more cheaply than the US company.

However, the current president of China is busy making himself ever-more powerful, eliminating term limits so he can be dictator-for-life. He is keenly aware that the enviromental issues are causing great harm to China, and his slogan is "beautiful China", and he is implementing sweeping changes to reduce pollution across the board. And, as China's economy succeeds, wages grow. Eventually the playing field will become more level, and Chinese steel will not be so cheap compared to US steel.

[ 03-09-2018, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-09-2018, 07:51 AM:

My problem with trade wars and tarrifs is that it requires a skewed view of economics to justify such actions.

Trade is a mutually beneficial exchange, without any force or fraud. If I want to buy a car, and I decide that the best value for my money is a Mercedes, why shouldn't I be able to buy it? Or if I want to put a steel roof on my house, why should I pay more to an American steel producer instead buying the same quality steel from Brazil?

Note that there are no 'borders' in trade. It is two individuals (or companies) engaging in a deal that improves both sides. Trouble begins when you start adding in the artificial effect of imaginary geographic lines and tallying up things inside and outside those imaginary lines.

The fact that the US has a 'trade deficit' simply means that our economy can consume most of what we produce, AND MORE. That is a 'feature', not a bug, of being the wealthiest people on the planet. In some industries, we import more than we make inside those imaginary lines. In others, we make most of what we consume locally. And in still others, we sell some of what we make inside our borders, but sell more outside of those lines. The point is that the lines really don't matter... it all comes down to fair and unforced transactions between two parties that are mutually satisfactory.

Would it make sense for Kentucky to determine if it had a "trade deficit"? Of course not! But it is equally valid argument to use the arbitrary line around Kentucky as it is to use the one around the United States as a whole. Or equally invalid. Both are irrelevant to economic activity.

Now, as Norm and others have pointed out, should war break out, then local production of strategic materials matters. A LOT. The solution for that is to do what pisses some of the same people off who want tariffs: Have the government pay American companies outrageous amounts for their products so they stay in business. This is essentially what happens in Military procurement, and is part of the reason we see occasional outrage over $5,000 toilet seats. We NEED a robust set of companies that can deliver the very best military technology, but that means we have to ensure that they don't go out of business. So, the government pays top dollar for our fighters, ships, and tanks. We could get the same functionality (well, almost) much less expensively if we 'shopped around', but it is a strategic imperative that we keep that capability here.

I can see the same for steel and aluminum, and other 'key' industries. But propping them up would simply mean higher taxes. Do YOU want to pay higher taxes so we can maintain sufficient indigenous steel production? Or do you want to pay more for steel, due to the tariffs? When a nation decides to get involved in 'managing' the economy, you and I WILL pay, one way or the other.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-11-2018, 12:30 PM:

ukcatfannfl:

quote:
in one word unions

Are you saying you don't like unions?

Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-11-2018, 04:34 PM:

I don't know much about unions, but weren't they needed in a time when there were no laws protecting workers? I think that unions have evolved in this country to do nothing more than protect lazy workers. If you're an exceptional worker in a union, aren't you still lumped in with everyone else when it comes to reviews, raises, etc? I have several friends who are supervisors in union shops and they all say the workers just milk the system to get extra hours. They slack off during the week to get overtime hours on weekends. All I know is that I wouldn't want to be lumped in with a union.

But like i said, I don't really know much about them.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-11-2018, 05:25 PM:

Sounds more like a management problem to me.

Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-11-2018, 09:38 PM:

Or maybe there are now two of us who don't know much about unions.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-12-2018, 08:55 AM:

Could be...I was a UMWA member for 11 years...Supervisor for 17 years in union and non-union plants.
I'm somewhat familiar with the "working" habits of some (small %) employees, union and otherwise, who game the system.

In every plant I worked there was one incontrovertible rule: Management, and only management, has the right to direct the work force.

If employees are lazy and "slacking" it's management's job not to allow it.

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 03-12-2018, 09:59 AM:

Unions? They rob from the workers and hinder productivity of the businesses.

Anyone ever hear of the teamsters? As corrupt as it gets.

Teachers unions? Not sure which state, but some union is on strike and the kids cant finish out their school year because of some selfish assholes.

Posted by MountainMafia (Member # 2066) on 03-12-2018, 10:35 AM:

Is the same true for fire fighters and police unions?