quote:

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Originally posted by handycat:
Saw this comparison of Tubby’s last 7 years (2001- 2007) versus Cai’s last seven (2016 - 2022).

Tubby. Cal

177 wins. 175 wins
74.6 win %. 73.5 win %
13 NCAA wins. 9 NCAA wins
2 Elite 8. 2 elite 8
O NCAA tournament missed. 1 NCAA tournament

I thought this was interesting and thought I would share.

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Handy,

If you factor in Strength of Schedule Tubby's wins and winning % are far more impressive than Cal's. Cal is doing it by playing very few competitive games prior to SEC play by playing every directional school known to man.

Even Tubby's last few years when UK was going down hill they were still better than Cal's last two years.

I will say that I do believe Cal and Cats were setup well to make a run for the title in 2019-2020 if COVID would not have hit because having three guards like Quickley/Maxey/Hagans, but we will never know for sure.

[ 03-19-2022, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]
 

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Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 03-19-2022, 09:21 AM:
 
I really didn’t finish my thoughts on this last night because it was very late. 9 Pm is bed time unless the apocalypse has begun.

I found this interesting because with very similar results, one coach was ran out of town and one was given a lifetime contract. Not sure why.

I believe there is an unorganized effort underway to force Cal into retirement. He is NOT going to be fired IMO. Money, if nothing else, will prevent this.

After reading all the negative comments on here and other sites, listening to a national radio talk show and talking to my son, I’m starting to think it might be best if Cal retired.

If our fan base is successful in pushing Cal out, I hope they wii at least give him the credit and respect that I believe he deserves.

OK, I’m done defending or criticizing Cal. I’ll leave that to others but will read/listen with interest.
 

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Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-19-2022, 09:26 AM:
 
Handy that is that an amazing stat as I didn't realize that Tubby was better than our current coach in your chart and I thought it was time for him to go as we expected better.

And as trey pointed out based on SOS tubby was probably better than cal.

We need to do better! So embarrassing here in Florida when I can't even wear a UK hat without someone either friend or stranger grins and says "St Peters"!
 

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Posted by SCWC (Member # 2464) on 03-19-2022, 09:46 AM:
 
I found those same statistics on Kentucky Sports Radio site. Tubby did play a much toughter non conference schedule than Cal. At least Tubby was man enough to step down on his own as the program was sliding, something I doubt that Cal will ever do.

That St Peters loss the other night was about as embarrassing loss as I have seen at Ky in a long, long time. I guess the NIT first round loss a few years ago would equal it.

I have a saying, Cal is playing 20th century basktball in the 21st century. He does not guard the three point shot, does not run a 3 point offense, still only knows the dribble drive which only works if you have outstanding guards.

I personally think it is time for Cal to step down at UK but we all know that is not going to happen because he has a lifetime contract. Barnhart is the one that should be fired at UK for hiring Billy Gillispie on his own (only coach ever hired at UK without a search committee). Mike Pratt was in charge of the committee that hired Cal and that was who I wanted for UK at the time. He will never show the class Tubby did and walk away from the program with his dignity in check.
 

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Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-19-2022, 10:07 AM:
 
Don't forget that Tubby went out and found a job without informing the school of his intentions. Don't know if that is underhanded or not but surprised a lot of people..
 

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Posted by SCWC (Member # 2464) on 03-19-2022, 10:55 AM:
 
Yes, I recall that and felt it was rather unethical.
 

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Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-19-2022, 11:40 AM:
 
Well who hasn't done that? Would anyone here tell their employer if they were looking for a new job?

[ 03-19-2022, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: PaulCat ]
 

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Posted by ukman (Member # 3032) on 03-19-2022, 12:53 PM:
 
Those stats aren't too surprising to me. Tubby was a far superior game coach, Cal the better recruiter. I remember a few years ago I was lamenting on here about Cal's lack of coaching ability, and there were several people who did not like that one bit. It seems like most people are finally realizing that Cal is not a good coach. I use to think he could develop players because they would succeed in the NBA, but I am not so sure now. As someone said the players that do stick around do not tend to show much improvement. The only I can maybe think of is Richards and maybe Derek Willis. I guess I can say that Patrick Patterson improved his game when Cal came, but heck that wasn't hard to happen when the previous coach was BCG. I have been ready for Cal to go for several years. I wasn't even that happy when we got him, but then I loved the recruiting. But even then I never said he was a good game coach. Never have said those words and never will. He has done below what he should have done with the talent he has had. I would be thrilled if he decided to hang it up and go do TV or something else. I do feel he will not leave until it is painfully obvious to him, and us, that it is time. I hold out some small hope that he might actually try to learn and develop himself as a coach, but I have been asking for that for the last 7 years or so. I just don't see it happening. In his mind he is the best coach there is. He is blind to the facts. I have no idea how he could think about that last game and not realize that he was the main factor in that loss. But all he does is make excuses abut giving up back door cuts, bad passes, etc. Is that rue, yes; But it also true that he did not have this team ready to play, and he did nothing to help them overcome those things int he game. A complete failure from a coaching stand point.
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 01:31 PM:
 
Let's compare apples to apples here.
Both of these men mentioned in this post coached at other universities, correct?

Of these other teams that both men coached what kind of record did they have? How many final fours have both of these men been too?

I know Tubby has been to 1 final four. He coached in 1 championship game. SO I'll give him the fact that he's 100% every time he's been to the championship game. Now let's see how many final fours has Cal been to?

Tubby went to 1 I repeat 1 final four. His first year at KY. Grant it, I feel in my heart, that Pitino would not have won the '98 title with that bunch of boys! By the same token, Jeff Shephard himself will tell you that if they had continued to play ball the way Tubby wanted them to, they wouldn't have won the title in '98 either!

That was a team '98, that had enough experienced leaders to get them past some of the things Tubby wanted to do!
Cal, on the other hand has taken 3 different teams to the final four! 2 of those teams came out of conferences that little if any teams even make the final four! The Atlantic 10 and Conference USA ! He's also coached in 3 championship games in his career!

I'm not posting this to upset any of you guys, I'm just stating facts. I think it's unfair to say Cal hasn't won a game since 2019 when the tourney was canceled in 2020! Was that his fault? That's also like saying that Cal hasn't beaten UL in over 2 years, when we all know that rivalry game didn't take place in the '21-'22 season because UL had Covid!

Yes he really sucked it up last season. I honestly think a lot of that had to do with the fact, when you have young teams most years like he does, His players didn't play 5 on 5 basketball before October! When your guys don't hardly know each other before practicing officially beings you are behind from the start!

I'm very disappointed in this seasons outcome. Only because, like you, I felt we had one of if not the BEST team in the country! We've learned in the past the Duke Zion Williams team, that the best team in the country doesn't always win the title!

The University of KY will always be a Great program no matter who the coach is. Case in point we've had 5 different coaches win a national title during thier stay at the helm of our ship!
Not sure if Cal will save the ship of if he'll have to step down in the next 2-3 years but I do onow 1 things for certain! If the UK men's basketball ship goes down, I'm going down with it! I love my university I love you guys, as long as I have a breath in my body I'll support the Cats!.

I don't blindly support Cal, by the same token as long our AD and other Univ. leaders think Cal is our man then I'll support their decision!

During the '21-'22 season We beat some of the biggest named teams in the country this year! Several of those teams are still playing for a title! UNC, Kansas, UT just to name a few.

For some reason this t4eam started a down hill slide in the final 4-5 weeks of the season. Not sure if it all started after the injuries to our starters or what. You know as well as I that of all the games we lost this season there was only 1 game that we were never in the game, UT in Knoxville!

Back to the original subject. if we're going to compare the two, then let's compare their entire body of work, like they always say this time of year during the tourney selection time! The entire body of work between Cal and Tubby isn't even close When it comes to the NCAA Tourney!

[ 03-19-2022, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: m hamilton ]
 

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Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-19-2022, 01:33 PM:
 
Two questions: Who would you rather have? Why?
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 01:52 PM:
 
Has the game of basketball passed Cal by a little bit in the last couple of years! I might agree with that statement! That's one of the reasons why you have to rotate your assistants from time to time. They bring new and fresh ideas to the table. If the head coach (that's a big IF) is open to listen to the suggestions of the assistants, you come up with fresh ideas for offense and defense!
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 01:53 PM:
 
Scott Drew is currently getting his a$$ handed to him by a team that we beat like a drum this year!

Mark Few is not leaving Gonzaga!

Chris Beard took Texas Tech to a deep run in 2019 but other than that he's very unproven!

[ 03-19-2022, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: m hamilton ]
 

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Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 03-19-2022, 01:56 PM:
 
Mark, very, very nice post. Puts a little perspective into the discussion.

Norm, I hear Coach K might be interested and is available. As to why, it would piss Old Norm off if he was even mentioned.

[ 03-19-2022, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 01:58 PM:
 
LOL, Handy, I'm not sure if, after 42 years at dUKe, K is looking to start over again at another program!

He's also 75 years old, he might make a good equipment manager though!
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 02:22 PM:
 
Baylor is making a go of it. The lead is 3 with 1:48 to play
 

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Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-19-2022, 02:33 PM:
 
80-80. 16 seconds.
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 02:34 PM:
 
They were trailing by 25 points in this half! WOW
 

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Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-19-2022, 02:37 PM:
 
O.T.
 

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Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-19-2022, 02:39 PM:
 
I wouldn't ordinarily root for Baylor, but they ARE playing UNC!
 

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Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-19-2022, 05:56 PM:
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Norm:
Two questions: Who would you rather have? Why?

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quote:

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Originally posted by m hamilton:
By the same token, Jeff Shephard himself will tell you that if they had continued to play ball the way Tubby wanted them to, they wouldn't have won the title in '98 either!

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And if you ask Wayne Turner/Scott Padgett/Cameron Mills they all say the opposite. They say the team finally "embraced" Tubby's ball line defense and motion offense late in the season and that is why they won and that is what I remember watching, but I'm old and my memory is not what it once was. LOL.

I know I've heard Shepard say that, but you have three others on record that have said the exact opposite.

As far as what they did at other schools I am going to be honest. I'm not sure it matters. UK is a whole different beast. I think a ton of coaches who are great coaches at other schools and have never won a championship at another school could come to UK and win one like Hall/Pitino/Tubby/Cal have done. That is the beauty of UK/UNC/Kansas basketball. Many coaches have won championships at these schools with UK leading the way to show it is more about the program than the coach, something no other programs can really say.

I think IU/UCLA/Louisville/Villanova/UCONN/NC State/Michigan State are the only other programs to have at least two coaches win a title.

[ 03-19-2022, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 06:19 PM:
 
I'm thinking your 1st 3 will never happen. Unless 1 of those guys is very unhappy where they are currently at, then I don't see them leaving their respective programs.

Wright isn't in a pressure cooker where he's at. Stevens was approached by IU to coach their team and he said I'm quite happy right where I'm at. I'm not sure how many years it's been since Billy D coached college ball. Would he be able to hit the recruiting trail running? One of the things most Pro coaches DO LIKE is the fact they don't have to worry about anything else but coaching ball. They don't have to go after their players every spring summer and winter. They don't have to worry about academics or what their player is doing outside of coaching them in basketball!

Pitino is too old to try and coach a program like ours. Once again, RP isn't in the pressure cooker at Iona like he would be at KY!

Suprisingly, I DO Like the Sampson name. Heck we took Calipari when many questioned his tactics, saying ,"He's going to have KY back on probation again!" Best I can tell, Cal has never done anything inapropriate!

[ 03-19-2022, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: m hamilton ]
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 06:28 PM:
 
Trey, you also forgot to mention out of all those programs that UL is the only one of those programs have an NCAA Title stripped from their possession!
 

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Posted by CatfanRick (Member # 126) on 03-19-2022, 06:31 PM:
 
I get Rick Barnes, whatever it takes. Everybody has a price, and Kentucky can afford what Barnes would want.

Frank Martin would be on my list too.

Jay Wright if you could get him away from Villanova. That would be difficult I think, the question would be would he want the pressure.

I also like Sean Miller, but he just went back to Xavier.

Ideal, do as suggested in another topic, keep Calipari as our recruiter. Make that his only responsibility including all the media face time and muttering of B/S he can come up with to get the player our coach sends him to get. Oh yes, our coach, get Tubby Smith out of retirement and let him do all of the on court stuff...
 

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Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-19-2022, 06:35 PM:
 
Barnes is already 68 years old! Would a man that age want to try to come to a place like KY? I'm not sure UT puts as much pressure on their men's coach as KY's does. I could be wrong, and MOST OF THE TIME I AM!!
 

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Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-19-2022, 07:30 PM:
 
To the victor go the spoils: Hire the St. Peters coach.

At least he would consider it.
 

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Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-19-2022, 07:32 PM:
 
I think Jay Wright would come to UK in a heartbeat.

I also think Billy D would consider it. I also think Brad Stevens is a long shot, but let’s admit it we are talking UK not IU here.
 

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Posted by Bama Cat (Member # 153) on 03-19-2022, 08:17 PM:
 
Lets just face the facts. We blew it big time Thursday because our players did not perform even close to their potential. We fell apart and did a little improvising at times. But when you lose by that small amount and play the way we did, what can you expect? But this is not the worst one. How many times should we have won the championship? I can count at least 5 times during my tenure. Would 13 be more than UCLA's total? I think they have 11, but most of them came when BB was not controlled well by the NCAA. We'll get over this fairly soon, but will Cal really be able to wipe last year and this year out of his mind, let alone the loss to WV when we had the best team that year. Cal's first team at UK and the 1984 team losing to Georgetown when we had the twin towers killing everyone. This one may stick in out minds as long as the Laetner shot has, but we'll just move on after a while and hope......and pray that UK BB will make the necessary changes needed to regain ALL THE PRESTIGE we have lost with that peerformance Thursday night.
 

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Posted by ukman (Member # 3032) on 03-19-2022, 10:04 PM:
 
I was very impressed with Holloway the other night. He made some great adjustments for St. Peters, and he had them prepared and ready to win. Thought he did a great job. As far as Wright, he is who I wanted back when the job was open. I would love to have him, but I don't know if he wants all the pressure and attention. That's what makes it hard for this job is you have to have someone who craves the attention and pressure. I think he would do great at UK and win multiple championships. He's done it at Villanova and that's without top recruiting classes every year. He gets them in, develops them, and then they win as sophomores, juniors, and seniors. Kelvin Sampson has done a great job at Houston, and won everywhere he's been. Hadn't thought of him, but he might be a good one. But I'm going to stop dreaming about a new coach as I think we are going to have this one for at least another 5-7 years. So that probably means no championships in the next 5-7 years. Unless we just have the absolute best talent in the country. But even then he could mess that up (see 2015).
 

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Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-20-2022, 08:35 AM:
 
At some point - it could be next year or twelve years from now - Cal will step down as head coach at Kentucky. I don't care who replaces him as long as it's not another coach who runs the sidelines during the entire game yelling obnoxiously at the players.

If Cal walked away today, the only coach I wouldn't want is Tom Crean.
 

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Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-20-2022, 09:43 AM:
 

quote:

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Originally posted by m hamilton:
Trey, you also forgot to mention out of all those programs that UL is the only one of those programs have an NCAA Title stripped from their possession!

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Good Point.
 

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Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-20-2022, 09:44 AM:
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PaulCat:


If Cal walked away today, the only coach I wouldn't want is Tom Crean.

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