TheCatsDomain.Com Message Boards: So is it 10 Loss Tubby and 9 Loss Cal?

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Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-23-2018, 12:39 PM:

Let me just start by saying I loved Tubby and I love Cal. I don't want Cal to go anywhere. I'm just posting this because I think we as fans have a distorted view or memory sometimes.

So here goes:

10 loss Tubby lost 9 or more games in 6 of his 10 seasons or 60%.

9 loss Cal has lost 9 or more games in 5 of his 9 seasons so far or 55.5% of the time.

A lot of the haters say that Tubby's last three years were awful, which included two of his "10 loss seasons". During that time UK won 5 NCAA Tournament games.

9 Loss Cal's last three seasons, two of which also are part of his "9 loss season" total. During this time UK has won, 6 NCAA Tournament games.

Furthest each team made it in the Tournament:

Tubby: 1 Title, 3 Elite 8's, 2 Sweet 16's, 4 Second Round

Cal: 1 Title, 1 Championship Game, 2 final Four, 2 Elite 8's, 1 Sweet 16, 1 Second Round, 1 Did not make Tourney.

Cal better pick up the pace or many fans, if they hold true to the past, will want him out of Lexington.

[ 03-23-2018, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]

Posted by Old Norm (Member # 1482) on 03-23-2018, 12:57 PM:

Agree 100%.

Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-23-2018, 03:36 PM:

Great post, Trey.

And i wonder how many McDonalds boys Tubby had. Probably not 25% of what Cal has brought in.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-23-2018, 03:49 PM:

All I know this yr is that no one but no one could have drawn up an easier path to his 5th FF and his 5 stars blew it!!

Posted by blue hoot (Member # 398) on 03-23-2018, 04:26 PM:

I still think what's killing us is being too young and inexperienced. It bites us in the a** almost every year. Gabriel helped us out a lot but still disappointed in sophomore SKJ. Other than those 2 players we lack upperclassmen. Maybe next year we will finally have some veterans.

Posted by CatFanInYankeeville (Member # 2025) on 03-23-2018, 06:54 PM:

You are probably on to something, but I also think it's a different era. As short as the time span may be, during the Tubby days at UK, the 1 and dones weren't nearly as prevalent in the NCAA as they are now. It's a very different landscape.

Tubby ball itself was much different than the play that Cal puts out there. The thing that killed me about Tubby was the team would pass the ball, outside the arc, for 25 seconds, then throw up a prayer in a rush. Now sometimes, those kids were talented enough (or lucky enough) to make the shot. Many times they weren't. At least the team under Cal generally has a high energy offense, most times he tries to implement a motion or dribble drive. Tubbys teams definitely played better defense, and played together more. These kids under Cal are out for #1 only...especially this season.

Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-23-2018, 08:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CatFanInYankeeville:
The thing that killed me about Tubby was the team would pass the ball, outside the arc, for 25 seconds, then throw up a prayer in a rush. Now sometimes, those kids were talented enough (or lucky enough) to make the shot. Many times they weren't. At least the team under Cal generally has a high energy offense, most times he tries to implement a motion or dribble drive.

No doubt they went about it different ways, but surprisely by Points Per Game they produced almost identical results:

Tubby's teams averaged 75.11 PPG
Cal's teams have averaged 77.18 PPG

Throwing out statistical outliers for each (highest scoring season and lowest scoring season) the results look like this:

Tubby's Teams 75.50
Cal's Teams 76.66

I always said the reason that UK didn't complete the undefeated season in 2014-15 was because Cal fell in love with having his team execute in the half court offense the last 7 minutes of the game. With all the talent on that team UK should have been pushing the pace and creating more possessions per game.

Doing this research that 2014-15 team is Cal's second lowest scoring team in during his tenure here: 74.36 PPG. They played at a pedestrian pace with all kinds of thoroughbreds on the court and on the bench that year.

Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-23-2018, 09:28 PM:

One problem I see is that Tubby never sniffed the final four again after winning the title in his first season. Al least Cal has taken us to 4 final fours and 2 championship games!

Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-23-2018, 09:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by m hamilton:
One problem I see is that Tubby never sniffed the final four again after winning the title in his first season. Al least Cal has taken us to 4 final fours and 2 championship games!

I agree he never got back to one, but will disagree that he never sniffed another. 3 Elite 8's isn't sniffing the Final Four?

The 2002-03 team is still one of the best teams that I have seen in the last 20 years. I mean that was as dominant of a 26 game winning streak that I have ever witnessed. If Bogan doesn't sprain his ankle against Wisconsin they win that championship going away IMO.

2004-05 Team lost in OT in the Elite 8. One rebound away from going to that Final Four or if the ref would have had the balls to call the foul on the shot that Sparks made to send it to OT, and there was no doubt he was fouled, UK could have been in the Final 4.

[ 03-23-2018, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]

Posted by m hamilton (Member # 127) on 03-23-2018, 09:50 PM:

4 is greater than 1 any way you slice it. Tubby never returned to the final four with any other program. Cal coached in championship games at other programs. Final fours at two other programs as well!

Don't get me wrong. I never held anything at all against Tubby Smith. I have two pictures of him hanging on my walls here at my house to be exact. But he's no where near as good a coach as Cal!

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-23-2018, 09:50 PM:

trey no offense but awful lot of could have might have.

No one remembers those just the result. Tubby has been a good ga type coach. His downfall was he could not or would not recruit. Mediocre coaching results once he had his own players..

Posted by PaulCat (Member # 513) on 03-24-2018, 06:28 AM:

To quote the great Reese Bobby - "if you ain't first, you're last."

Simply getting to Final Fours and losing doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I don't feel any better about the Final Four loss in 2015 than I do this year's loss to K-State.

The one stat from Trey's original post that should stick out the most is Cal's 1 Did not make Tourney. To me, there's no way in hell a Kentucky team under Calipari should ever miss an NCAA tournament. I think Tubby could coach here 50 years and he'd never miss the tournament.

Posted by Tiptree (Member # 844) on 03-24-2018, 11:02 AM:

I think Trey and I are twins separated at birth. [Smile]

I agree with every word he wrote. Tubby's biggest problem wasn't coaching, it was selling. Cal is the consumate salesman, both selling the idea of using UK as a waystop to NBA riches, and selling UK (and himself) to the basketball public at large.

Tubby floored some amazingly good teams. But, in a single-elimination tournament, one bad game, or one unsolveable matchup problem, and the best team is out. Tubby's ousters in the elite 8 games were painful, but not at all due to coaching errors or even lack of talent.

I even really liked the much-maligned "Ball Line Defense". It was a great way to stop both dribble penetration and passes into the post. You didn't see many back-door cuts for slams, nor opposing teams driving the ball at will against us. It surrendered the 3-point shot to ensure that the higher-percentage layups and slams were minimized.

No, Tubby's "failures" were, in my opinion, mostly bad matchups (Dwane Wade vs. the hobbled bogans), or the bounce of the ball (the missed rebound by Hayes against Michigan State). His teams executed well, were disciplined, and played good, hard-nosed defense. I thought he was an outstanding coach.

If only he was a better saleman too.

Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-24-2018, 01:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tiptree:
I think Trey and I are twins separated at birth.

I think you got the height. So you must be Arnold Swazenagger and I must be Danny DeVito!! [Smile]

[ 03-24-2018, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]

Posted by catmandoo (Member # 1284) on 03-24-2018, 02:20 PM:

If Tubby had the talent Cal has recruited he would have won more games for sure. Cal is the better recruiter Tubby the better bench coach. imo

Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-24-2018, 07:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by PaulCat:
To quote the great Reese Bobby - "if you ain't first, you're last."

Simply getting to Final Fours and losing doesn't mean a whole lot to me. I don't feel any better about the Final Four loss in 2015 than I do this year's loss to K-State.

I agree 100%. I personally don't think Final Four Banners should be hanging in Rupp. There should only be 8 Team Banners Hanging up in those rafters in my opinion.

[ 03-24-2018, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 03-26-2018, 11:43 AM:

Tubby couldn't handle the elite players. He was at odds with Rondo from day one.

Give Tubby a team full of freshmen and he couldn't handle them. That is not who he is.

Notice he is is scoring an obscure job to end his career.

UK's team will be loaded for bear with plenty of returning experience next season and should be a viable contender for a title.

After Calipari wins another title, I don't expect the criticizing to end. It will just be more of the same. He shoulda or coulda won more titles.....that is what will be the next topic.

[ 03-26-2018, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: boomdaddy ]

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-26-2018, 02:52 PM:

duke went to several ff's before K won one. he was the coach who couldn't win the big one. one he broke thru he has won 4. i thought cal would have won 2 or 3 at ky by now - with the talent he has had every yr.

Posted by Trey Ball (Member # 332) on 03-26-2018, 08:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ukcatfannfl:
duke went to several ff's before K won one. he was the coach who couldn't win the big one. one he broke thru he has won 4. i thought cal would have won 2 or 3 at ky by now - with the talent he has had every yr.

Slight correction....Coach K has won 5.

Posted by ukcatfannfl (Member # 1425) on 03-27-2018, 01:49 AM:

ty 5 he could have had 10 if he could have won early on in career