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Posted by catmandoo (Member # 1284) on 09-04-2014, 05:38 PM:

I think todays athletes are bigger, stronger and a lot more talented than any of Rupp's teams. I'm sure some may disagree and certainly don't mean to demean Rupp or any of his teams and players in any way as they were the best of their era. Feel free to disagree but would like to hear your reasoning.

Posted by SCWC (Member # 2464) on 09-04-2014, 06:00 PM:

Basketball has evolved so much since the days of Rupp and it is totally unfair to the great teams he coached to try to compare them to today's teams. I would say Rupp's teams were fundamentally sounder than today's teams are but competetion wise, size, athleticism etc makes id extremely difficult to even attempt to speculate about how the teams many years ago would fare with those of today.

Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 09-04-2014, 07:07 PM:

My heart would have me believe the stars of my youth could compete with todays players. My eyes and mind tell me otherwise. IMO, there are two reasons. The players are certainly bigger, stronger and IMO more athletic. Also there were very few black players that were allowed to show case their talents. That is NOT a knock on Rupp, that was just the way it was in that time period. Not only on Rupp's team but much of major college basketball and the NBA as well.

I honestly believe that you could take an NBA all star team from the late 50' or early 60's, put them in the present day NCAA tournament and they would not even make the sweet 16.

I agree with SCWC when he says "it is totally unfair to the great teams he coached to try to compare them to today's teams." They were the best of their time and that's all you can ask of any player, coach or team.

[ 09-04-2014, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]

Posted by Bama Cat (Member # 153) on 09-04-2014, 10:37 PM:

Sad but true. even looking at Oscar Robertson, Jerry West and Elvin Hayes I don't think they would beat some of the teams of today. I'm not sure what would happen if you took Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem against today's centers. They played in the late 50s and 60s and just might put some of todays centers to shame. About the best we could do would be Dan Isssel but I doubt he would fare too well against some of today's centers.

Posted by Green-Bean (Member # 13551) on 09-05-2014, 11:06 AM:

Bama bill Russell was really good and athletic, as far as our players, Rupp always had players with high basketball IQ'S, fundamentally sound, coachable, and there was no dunking in his day, so all that great stylish dunking would just count 2 points anyway. Pat Riley could jump out of the gym, he only lost the opening tip 1 time, and that was to a 7ft from vandy. Pat was only 6ft3. If Tom Payne had any sense he could have played in any era. Clyde Lee was the player I think? Riley lost the 1 tip too.

[ 09-05-2014, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Green-Bean ]

Posted by GA Cat (Member # 642) on 09-07-2014, 12:13 AM:

Just got give us an idea of how the game has changed.

Bill Laimbeer was on the 1989 and 1990 repeat, Detroit Pistons NBA championship teams. In his day, he was hated by opponents and, even though he had a nice touch with the ball, he was considered an enforcer. He pushed people around because of his size and bulk. He was 6' 11" and 245 lbs.

Consider that size when compared to Lebron James, who is a small forward at 6' 8" and 250 lbs.

The NBA enforcer of 20 years ago, it the size of a small forward today.

I love the athletes of yesteryear, but the size, speed, and strength of today's athletes is amazing. Now, if the athlete of yesteryear group in today's world, he might very well have the size, strength, and speed of today's athlete.

Posted by boomdaddy (Member # 2644) on 09-07-2014, 08:13 AM:

The athletes in the modern era are much taller, imho and don't think it would be a fair comparison. I would be more interested in how Rupp would compete with today's kids? In the Rupp era, freshmen weren't allowed to play varsity and he referred to the freshmen as turds. If he were a coach in today's times, I would think that he would be smart enough to adapt to the times. Even though I don't like the rat face guy that coaches Duke, I would liken him to a modern day Rupp.

Posted by ironrangetoo (Member # 10205) on 09-07-2014, 11:57 AM:

Green-Bean
Pat Riley was listed at 6' 5" in his UK days, while the center, and one guard, were listed at 6' 6".
I'm trying to remember if one of the 6' 6" players was actually listed at 6' 6.5"[ or perhaps 6' 6.75"].
I am also wondering if the jump he lost occurred before, or after he injured his back.

[ 09-07-2014, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: ironrangetoo ]

Posted by SCWC (Member # 2464) on 09-07-2014, 12:45 PM:

Riley was listed as 6'3" tall in the official final four program for the Texas Western game. I have the original program from that game and he was listed as being six three in it. The tallest player that started on the Runts was Thad Jaracz at 6'5 and Tommy Kron also 6'5" who was a guard, with Cliff Burger at 6'8 was the tallest sub used on that team. The program I have lists Jaracz and Kron at six five, Riley and Conley at six three and Louie Dampier at six feet. Rupp had a tendency to shrink the size of his players for the official programs so Riley could have actually been taller than listed but I had always read and heard that he was six three.

It was the Runts that Rupp invented the 1-3-1 zone defense for, the first time any team had used such a defense.

[ 09-07-2014, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

Posted by handycat (Member # 2323) on 09-07-2014, 02:21 PM:

I've tried to find the "vertical leap" for Riley without success. Does any one remember? I was wondering how it would compare to todays players.

Posted by ironrangetoo (Member # 10205) on 09-07-2014, 04:27 PM:

I never saw a NCAA program, but I attended many games as a student and feel sure the UK game programs listed Riley as 6' 5".

Posted by SCWC (Member # 2464) on 09-07-2014, 05:05 PM:

Here is what I find on Riley when he was drafted for the NBA.

Patrick James Riley

Position: Shooting Guard and Small Forward ▪ Shoots: Right
Height: 6-4 ▪ Weight: 205 lbs.
Born: March 20, 1945 (Age 69.171) in Rome, New York
High School: Linton in Schenectady, New York
College: University of Kentucky
Draft: San Diego Rockets, 1st round (7th pick, 7th overall), 1967 NBA Draft
NBA Debut: October 14, 1967
Hall of Fame: Inducted as Coach in 2008 (Full List)
As Coach: 24 Yrs, 1210-694, .636 W-L% (Full Record)
As Executive: MIA franchise, 2008-2014 (Full Record)

His NBA height was listed as six four but the NCAA final four book I have listed him as six three at UK, that is all I have to go by and having followed that team very closely I had always heard he was six three like Green Bean did.

Handycat, I can't find anything on his vertical leap, like you I was very curious about that aspect of his game.

[ 09-07-2014, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

Posted by catmandoo (Member # 1284) on 09-07-2014, 09:14 PM:

I don't know Pat Riley's jumping ability but the leading rebounder for the Texas Western game was a tie and it was not Pat Riley who ended up with 4 boards. It was the shortest Cat on the floor, Louie Dampier with 9 rebounds who tied for game honors with David Lattin of Texas Western.

Posted by Green-Bean (Member # 13551) on 09-08-2014, 12:40 PM:

scwc like u I always heard cawood say Riley was 6ft3 and ive heard he had a 36 inch vertical, I stood beside Riley and im 6ft 3 and he was no taller than me, just like I heard Rupp say once that he listed Issel at 6ft8.5 and he was really 6ft10 been beside issel, and I would say hes 6ft10 easy. thad jaraz played at Lafaette high school in Lexington, Cliff Berger was 6ft8. about the only sub Rupp played on 66 team, I liked berger and he could shoot too. im sticking with 6ft3 on Riley.

Posted by Green-Bean (Member # 13551) on 09-08-2014, 01:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SCWC:
Riley was listed as 6'3" tall in the official final four program for the Texas Western game. I have the original program from that game and he was listed as being six three in it. The tallest player that started on the Runts was Thad Jaracz at 6'5 and Tommy Kron also 6'5" who was a guard, with Cliff Burger at 6'8 was the tallest sub used on that team. The program I have lists Jaracz and Kron at six five, Riley and Conley at six three and Louie Dampier at six feet. Rupp had a tendency to shrink the size of his players for the official programs so Riley could have actually been taller than listed but I had always read and heard that he was six three.

It was the Runts that Rupp invented the 1-3-1 zone defense for, the first time any team had used such a defense.

Now this is Right scwc knows his stuff, yes Rupp invented 1-3-1 zone, and Rupp invented the weave, and the backdoor play.scwc has forgot more than I will ever know about basketball.