|
Author
|
Topic: Impeachment
|
Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
|
posted 01-23-2020 04:25 PM
Adam Schiff is a stinking piece of Schiff. I admire those poor Senators that are forced to sit and listen to his babble for hours on end. Especially since EVERYBODY knows what the outcome of this charade will be.
--------------------
Pray For Our Country!
Posts: 36266 | From: Western KY | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-23-2020 04:29 PM
Knowing the outcome is the charade.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
|
posted 01-23-2020 04:56 PM
Just tell me what crime has been committed by Mister Trump. Therein lies the charade.
--------------------
Pray For Our Country!
Posts: 36266 | From: Western KY | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-23-2020 05:03 PM
Extortion, bribery, etc. If Trump is innocent why is he blocking witnesses.....the very people that could exonerate him.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
|
posted 01-23-2020 05:15 PM
Just hang on to your dreams MM. Everything will be okay.Promise.
--------------------
Pray For Our Country!
Posts: 36266 | From: Western KY | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-23-2020 05:20 PM
I will, Norm. I promise.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 01-23-2020 05:56 PM
Bribery? Come on, MM. That is a stretch. The whole thing is the culmination of events that turned into an unstoppable freight train based purely upon personal dislike and a child-like refusal to accept defeat.
A whole class of freshman congressmen were elected with the mission to "impeach Trump". On what charges? They didn't know... the only knew that they hated him, and that was enough.
They appointed a special prosecutor by drumming up false evidence and getting a very questionable (and I am being charitable here) FISA warrant to spy on a presidential candidate. The investigation yielded a big fat ZERO.
Then they "find" a "whistleblower", who is NOT a whistleblower in any legal sense, and who was a friend of one of Schiff's new staffers. Nobody is allowed to know who this person is, nor question him.
This is not evidence. As much as I hate the term, this is a witch hunt. And, finding no witch, they decide to torch the constitution instead.
This is a terrible precedent. Impeaching a president simply because he is not charismatic (nor a democrat) only sets the bar for the table to be turned later. There IS no high crime here.
I cannot say what the outcome is. I hope the hearing goes well, and everyone gets to show whatever evidence they have. Then let's close this farce and try to repair our VERY broken Republic.
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-23-2020 08:05 PM
Tiptree:
quote:
Bribery? Come on, MM. That is a stretch.
What would you call illegally withholding nearly $400 million of congressionally approved military aid to an ally that is fighting off a Russian invasion until they open up an investigation into your political opponent?
I think extortion is a better fit, but bribery is mentioned in the constitution as a high crime.
quote:
A whole class of freshman congressmen were elected with the mission to "impeach Trump". On what charges? They didn't know... the only knew that they hated him, and that was enough.
There were 41 republican districts flipped in 2018...this is Republicans turning on Trump.
quote:
They appointed a special prosecutor by drumming up false evidence and getting a very questionable (and I am being charitable here) FISA warrant to spy on a presidential candidate. The investigation yielded a big fat ZERO.
"They" were the Republicans. ZERO? Are you talking about the Mueller Investigation?
quote:
Then they "find" a "whistleblower", who is NOT a whistleblower in any legal sense, and who was a friend of one of Schiff's new staffers.Nobody is allowed to know who this person is, nor question him.
That's the law.
quote:
Impeaching a president simply because he is not charismatic (nor a democrat) only sets the bar for the table to be turned later.
I couldn't agree more....except for this...
quote:
I hope the hearing goes well, and everyone gets to show whatever evidence they have. Then let's close this farce and try to repair our VERY broken Republic.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
m hamilton
Player
Member # 127
|
posted 01-24-2020 04:47 AM
If bribery is the charge then why isn't it one of the articles of impeachment? I'll tell you why. They couldn't make it stick.
They want to waste time talking about quid pro quo but they never charged him with it.
I think if you'll look closely, the GOP senators are willing to allow witnesses if they will be allowed to call certain witnesses that the Dems DON'T WANT to give testimony. (Bidens, for example)
--------------------
The potus is planning 1st major tax hike since '93 in next economic package!
I still can't believe some people believed that LIAR!!!
Your whole life is determined(by) 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you handle it!!!
Posts: 123969 | From: vevay, IN USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-24-2020 07:55 AM
mh:
quote:
If bribery is the charge then why isn't it one of the articles of impeachment? I'll tell you why. They couldn't make it stick.
They want to waste time talking about quid pro quo but they never charged him with it.
Article I....Abuse of power...covers a lot of ground.
quote:
I think if you'll look closely, the GOP senators are willing to allow witnesses if they will be allowed to call certain witnesses that the Dems DON'T WANT to give testimony. (Bidens, for example)
Call 'em all....no problem here! Let's see who the criminals are.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 01-24-2020 10:58 AM
The truth is, given both the stunning detail and simultaneous vagueness of the vast array of laws (mostly enacted not by congress, but by various agencies of the executive branch, like the EPA and the IRS), ALL of us are guilty of some crime. Look long enough, dig deep enough, and we can all at minimum face fines, or even jail time.
That is the sad truth for those of us living in the modern administrative state.
For Trump, the digging began in earnest as soon as he became a viable candidate, and it has never ceased. And they can only come up with these weak articles of Impeachment? After all of that????? It is tepid at best.
The worst part is that even if this attempt at impeachment fails, the democrats will not stop. Maxine Waters made that statement on TV -- if this case is dismissed, they will try again, and again....
Desperation? Yes. Hyper-partisanism? No doubt. But worse, It smacks of childishness and emotions over-ruling reason. Like him or not (and most of you know I am NOT a fan of Trump, the man), he is duly and fairly elected President of the United States. As such, according to precedent and law, he has sweeping executive powers. He has used those powers, just as EVERY modern president has done.
Please, democrats, can we actually start working for the people instead of against the president?????
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
Old Norm
Administrator
Member # 1482
|
posted 01-24-2020 11:55 AM
Still, no crime named. Actually, neither 'Abuse of power' nor 'Obstruction of congress', are against the law. As far as delaying the sending of money to Ukraine, It was actually sent before the deadline. He did indeed send money, and not blankets like Mr. Obama sent for "military aid" before. I could not believe Senator Chuck Schumer, when he was on TV a little while ago, extolling that "Wonderful presentation" Schiff gave for the last three days. It was probably the worst drivel I have ever heard, and mostly lies. I could not watch it for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Mr, Trump has done more good for this country than any president in my memory, and I've been here a long time. I believe he will be re-elected in a landslide, and that's why the democrats have their drawers in a wad.
--------------------
Pray For Our Country!
Posts: 36266 | From: Western KY | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
GA Cat
Administrator
Member # 642
|
posted 01-24-2020 12:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MountainMafia:
Extortion, bribery, etc. If Trump is innocent why is he blocking witnesses.....the very people that could exonerate him.
It is not his job to exonerate or prove himself innocent. It is the prosecutions job to prove him guilty. No matter which side of the fence we are in, we should support the presumption of innocence.
--------------------
Born Blue, Always Blue
Kentucky Blue, that is...
Posts: 2238 | From: Atlanta, GA, USA | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-24-2020 12:55 PM
Tiptree:
quote:
Please, democrats, can we actually start working for the people instead of against the president?????
“We're going to do everything — and I mean everything we can do — to kill it, (Obama's agenda), stop it, slow it down, whatever we can.”.....John Boehner.
“The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”....Mitch McConnell.
This is what mattered most to Republicans in 2010 when America was in a financial free fall and fighting two foreign wars.
Norm:
quote:
Actually, neither 'Abuse of power' nor 'Obstruction of congress', are against the law.
So, you're OK with Presidents doing it? BTW, it doesn't have to be a crime to be impeachable.
quote:
As far as delaying the sending of money to Ukraine, It was actually sent before the deadline.
It was only after Trump was caught strong-arming the Ukrainian President.
quote:
Mr, Trump has done more good for this country than any president in my memory, and I've been here a long time.
Specifics?
Ga Cat:
quote:
It is not his job to exonerate or prove himself innocent. It is the prosecutions job to prove him guilty. No matter which side of the fence we are in, we should support the presumption of innocence.
I presume someone to be innocent when they cooperate and demonstrate they have nothing to hide....not when they stonewall, lie and obstruct from the get go...but that's just me.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 01-24-2020 01:29 PM
Well, it is clear that you have made up your mind. I see no reason to engage with you further. Let me clarify one thing, though:
quote:
BTW, it doesn't have to be a crime to be impeachable.
Absolutely false. Here are the relevant sections of the constitution:
quote:
Article I, Section 2, Clause 5 provides:
The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.
Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7 provide:
The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two-thirds of the Members present.
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States; but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Article II, Section 2 provides:
[The President] ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.
Article II, Section 4 provides:
The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
There has been no treason. This president is about the most patriotic president since Reagan, and would not act against the United States. There has been no bribery. There are no crimes (high, or otherwise), nor any misdemeanors.
This is just a show trial, as in the old Soviet Union. I KNOW the depth of disdain and hostility that Trump evokes among liberals. I am among them every day, both at home and at work. I do work in Higher Education, the BASTION of progressivism and liberalism. But, just because he gives you the shivers doesn't make him a criminal, nor a traitor.
It is remarkable how cock-sure the liberals are that he is guilty of something, just because. But they have nothing that can prove it.
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-24-2020 02:11 PM
Tiptree:
quote:
BTW, it doesn't have to be a crime to be impeachable.
Absolutely false.
"High crimes and misdemeanors" has no statutory definition....therefore, the HOR decides what is and what ain't....can be a crime...don't have to be.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-24-2020 02:58 PM
Tiptree:
quote:
Well, it is clear that you have made up your mind. I see no reason to engage with you further.
I'm no more stubborn than you Tip, have a good day sir.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 01-24-2020 03:11 PM
Good day to you as well. No animosity to you, just recognition that you have made your stand.
BTW, do you really think this is a good idea?
quote:
"High crimes and misdemeanors" has no statutory definition....therefore, the HOR decides what is and what ain't....can be a crime...don't have to be.
I believe it was you who used to say "depends on whose ox is being gored", although I may be wrong on that. But it is the truth. What this whole sordid string of animosity-driven events is doing is setting the precedent for eternal war between the party who controls congress and the president, should that person be of the other party.
"Separation of Powers", "Check and Balances" are fine and good, but this is caustic and damaging to our Republic.
Unlike the Republican vows to oppose Obama's policies, or actually reverse them, there was nothing like the constant surveillance and dirt-digging done against him in order to evict him from office. Debating policies and philosophies of governance is part-and-parcel of our form of government. Hounding a man from before he was elected via insinuation, false claims, invalid FISA warrants, special prosecutors, and now, impeachment is a whole different thing. There has been no debate, nor congressional dialog. The two sides are simply not speaking to one another, at least not in any civil manner. This is NOT debating or opposing policies. It is, as Ms. Pelosi has made clear, "personal".
[ 01-24-2020, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
handycat
Player
Member # 2323
|
posted 01-24-2020 05:06 PM
Not that anybody cares, but here is what I think.
1. IMO, he did everything the dems said and he did it for the reasons they have stated. Basically for political reasons.
2. It is not impeachable.
3. Even if it was, the elections are too close. Let the American people decide the issue at the polls in 8 months. To do otherwise does too much damage to our country.
As much as it hurts and as embarrassing as it, I will be among the majority of those voting him in for a second term. Jerk or not, his political beliefs are more in line with my own and his accomplishments are difficult to argue with.
As Mick Mulvaney said “get over it”.
[ 01-24-2020, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: handycat ]
Posts: 5383 | From: decatur ill. | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
clydeh
Player
Member # 7
|
posted 01-24-2020 05:36 PM
I do not like Trump as an individual. I dislike his vulgar language use. However, I truly believe our country is doing better since he is president.
Posts: 845 | From: Cullman, AL, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-25-2020 12:20 AM
Tiptree:
quote:
BTW, do you really think this is a good idea?
quote:"High crimes and misdemeanors" has no statutory definition....therefore, the HOR decides what is and what ain't....can be a crime...don't have to be.
I think this is the Founding Fathers way of giving congress the ability to control and reel in unacceptable presidential conduct. i.e....using his position for personal gain, national security threat, etc. Though it may not be statutorily illegal, congress sees the behavior as unsatisfactory and not allowable.
clydeh:
quote:
However, I truly believe our country is doing better since he is president.
I keep hearing this guys but not many examples.
Personally, I have never seen America so divided at home and isolated abroad.
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
rlt4uk
Player
Member # 3194
|
posted 01-25-2020 12:32 AM
Trump has done everything he promised and the liberal Democrats can't stand that he's not a politician. They know that they can't beat him so they want to impeach him.
--------------------
Bleeding Blue in south Alabama. Kentucky born, Kentucky bred,I'll be kentucky until i'm dead!
Posts: 9776 | From: enterprise, al 36330 | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trey Ball
Administrator
Member # 332
|
posted 01-25-2020 12:36 AM
All I know is this: 66.67% of Presidents that have been impeached in our history have been impeached for embarrassing Hillary Clinton. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Wife's Mad. Told me we never talk anymore. And just last nite while watching super bowl told her 2 or 3 times to get me a coke and popcorn. Also told her not to forget to take out trash in the morning. Ain't that something. Also told me I was too indecisive. Can't figure out what to do about that. One nice thing I guess. She called me a pro crastinator. Don't know what a crastinator is but I guess I'm a good one for her to call me a pro. Gonna wait til tomorrow to look that up though. I love her but somrtimes can't help but thinking I should have told uncle Junior to keep his coon hound pup and stevens double barrel and also his youngest daughter.
redbone
Posts: 11553 | From: IN, USA | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tiptree
Administrator
Member # 844
|
posted 01-25-2020 01:24 AM
Ha! Never thought of it that way. Good point, Trey!
--------------------
Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 13600 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000
| IP: Logged
|
|
MountainMafia
Player
Member # 2066
|
posted 01-25-2020 01:19 PM
rlt4uk:
quote:
Trump has done everything he promised
Everything?
--------------------
"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
Posts: 4694 | From: Alabama | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
m hamilton
Player
Member # 127
|
posted 01-25-2020 02:11 PM
What has Trump done that he said he would do?
1) Build a wall on southern border
2)GEt rid of Obama Care
3)Begin rebuilding the countries infrastructure. (this one won't happen over night)
4) Prosecute Hillary (we're all hoping and waiting on that one)
5)make medical marijuana widely available for patients. (not sure where we are on this one)
6)Pick Supreme court justices that are legal scholars
7)Strengthen the Military
8)Bomb the $hit out of ISIS
9)Target and kill the relatives of terrorists
10)Bring back jobs from China
11)Aggressively challenge China's power in the world
12)Replace free trade with fair trade
13)Impose new taxes on imports
14)Terminate sanctuary cities
15)Deport illegals living in the US
16) triple number of ICE officers
These are just a few of the promises he made!
--------------------
The potus is planning 1st major tax hike since '93 in next economic package!
I still can't believe some people believed that LIAR!!!
Your whole life is determined(by) 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you handle it!!!
Posts: 123969 | From: vevay, IN USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
m hamilton
Player
Member # 127
|
posted 01-25-2020 02:13 PM
As far as granting everything he's promised, he probably has to have cooperation from the party that doesn't carry his name currently.
I dare say, HELL WILL FREEZE OVER BEFORE TRUMP EVER GETS COOPERATION FROM ANYONE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!
--------------------
The potus is planning 1st major tax hike since '93 in next economic package!
I still can't believe some people believed that LIAR!!!
Your whole life is determined(by) 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you handle it!!!
Posts: 123969 | From: vevay, IN USA | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged
|
|
catmandoo
Player
Member # 1284
|
posted 01-25-2020 05:15 PM
Tracking Trumps campaign promises:
Eliminate the federal debt in 8 years
The Promise: "We’ve got to get rid of the $19 trillion in debt. ... Well, I would say over a period of eight years. And I’ll tell you why.”
Update: Federal debt is up, not down, under Trump's watch
Take no salary
The Promise: "If I'm elected president, I'm accepting no salary."
Update: Trump donates 2019 salary to USDA, surgeon general
Declare China a currency manipulator
The Promise: "Instruct the Treasury Secretary to label China a currency manipulator."
Update: Trump delivers on promise as Treasury brands China a ‘currency manipulator’
Reverse Barack Obama's Cuba policy
The Promise: “The president’s one-sided deal for Cuba and with Cuba benefits only the Castro regime but all the concessions that Barack Obama has granted the Castro Regime was done through executive order, which means they can be undone and that is what I intend to do unless the Castro Regime meets our demands.”
Update: Trump travel restrictions continue rollback of Obama’s Cuba policy
Make no cuts to Medicare
The Promise: “I’m not going to cut Social Security like every other Republican and I’m not going to cut Medicare or Medicaid.”
Update: Democrats say latest Trump budget cuts Medicare, but it’s not that simple
Build a wall, and make Mexico pay for it
The Promise: "I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great great wall on our southern border and I’ll have Mexico pay for that wall."
Update: Donald Trump stalls on promise to build a wall, have Mexico pay for it
Cancel all funding of sanctuary cities
The Promise: "We will end the sanctuary cities that have resulted in so many needless deaths. Cities that refuse to cooperate with federal authorities will not receive taxpayer dollars, and we will work with Congress to pass legislation to protect those jurisdictions that do assist federal authorities.”
Update: Despite efforts, Donald Trump fails to cut funding from sanctuary cities
Get Congress to allow health insurance across state lines
The Promise: “The insurance companies are getting rich off health care and health insurance and everything having to do with health. We’re going to end that. We’re going to take out the artificial boundaries, the artificial lines. We’re going to get a plan where people compete, free enterprise.”
Update: Some new rules, but the lines remain
Terminate Barack Obama's immigration executive orders 'immediately'
The Promise: "Immediately terminate President Obama’s two illegal executive amnesties (Deferred Action for Parents of Americans and Lawful Permanent Residents and Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals). All immigration laws will be enforced -- we will triple the number of ICE agents. Anyone who enters the U.S. illegally is subject to deportation. That is what it means to have laws and to have a country."
Update: DACA remains, but Trump administration eliminated DAPA
Establish a commission on radical Islam
The Promise: “One of my first acts as president will be to establish a commission on radical Islam which will include reformist voices in the Muslim community who will hopefully work with us."
Update: No signs of a commission
Have mandatory minimum sentences for criminals caught trying to enter the United States illegally
The Promise: "On my first day in office, I am also going to ask Congress to pass 'Kate’s Law' – named for Kate Steinle – to ensure that criminal aliens convicted of illegal re-entry receive strong mandatory minimum sentences."
Update: No new public push from Trump for mandatory minimum sentences for illegal re-entry
Remove criminal undocumented immigrants
The Promise: “A Trump administration will stop illegal immigration, deport all criminal aliens, and save American lives.”
Update: More criminals in the country illegally are deported
Link
--------------------
http://www.ukfightsong.com/
Posts: 186359 | From: st. augustine florida 32092 | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic