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Author
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Topic: Koch brothers now leaning left
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-10-2019 11:34 AM
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They are never Trumpers and are putting their desires to block Trump, over the welfare of the country.
They are previously known for backing the tea party and libertarians.
[ 06-10-2019, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: boomdaddy ]
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Tiptree
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posted 06-10-2019 04:16 PM
Well, they are consistent. Trump is as far from Libertarian as any recent presidents, and certainly is no friend of the Tea Party.
The term "Never Trumper" is becoming a bit tired, sort of like "homophobic". Opposing a president on policy grounds is utterly patriotic, especially within the Republican party, which likes to call itself the "party of ideas". Unless you think Trump is indeed right on everything, I support reasoned dissent.
[ 06-10-2019, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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ukcatfannfl
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posted 06-10-2019 05:53 PM
Tip he is more "right" on more policy issues than the last few!
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ukcatfannfl
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Tiptree
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posted 06-10-2019 07:04 PM
No doubt, in both meanings of the word "right". ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But, he isn't as far "right" as most libertarians or tea party advocates. So, to say that the Koch brothers are leaning left is ridiculous. If anything, they are leaning far more to the right than Trump.
Libertarians would NEVER invoke tariffs for any reason. They are free market purists. And neither libertarians, nor Tea Party advocates would run the kind of deficits Trump is running. Boom called the Koch Brothers "leaning left"; I would say they are trying to drag Trump to the right.
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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MountainMafia
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posted 06-10-2019 10:22 PM
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I support reasoned dissent.
As do I...good post.
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"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-11-2019 09:37 AM
Giving amnesty to illegals is about as far left as you can get, in my opinion. That is what the Koch brothers are now supporting.
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Tiptree
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posted 06-11-2019 10:52 AM
Boom,
"right" and "left" are useless terms. let's look instead at "conservative" and "progressive". Even then, there are several different axes that need to be considered.
Fiscal matters (i.e., taxes, deficits, etc.)
Military/foreign policy matters (I.e., size of military, degree of involvement overseas, etc.)
Constitutional/government matters (i.e., the relative strengths and roles of the three branches, the rise of the administrative state, etc.)
Social matters (drug policy, immigration policy, welfare/social security/medicaid, etc)
For example, the Koch brothers lean Libertarian. That means strict constitutionalism, fiscal conservatism, and near isolationism in foreign policy. They also generally reject social policies in the belief that it is impossible, if not immoral, to legislate morality unless there is either fraud or force involved -- this is the "Liberal" in "Libertarian". Libertarians also tend to favor free markets and free movement of labor, which often means easy work visas and paths to citizenship for immigrants.
Favoring paths to citizenship usually involves some form of amnesty; the question is when and what are the conditions. Once the border is secured and we have a rational immigration/work visa program, then we have to deal with tens of millions of illegal immigrants who have been in this country for years, mostly operating in a peaceful, productive manner as part of our communities. It is not an easy question as to what to do with them, but I am quite sure I know your opinion.
[ 06-11-2019, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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ukcatfannfl
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posted 06-11-2019 11:38 AM
(illegal immigration citizenship)
The U.S. will do what the U.S. did when Reagan was President - blanket U.S. citizenship.
That is what this is all about. Nothing humanitarian about this invasion - all pure politics
while the low life democrats are destroying this country in order to get in power and stay in power.
(both parties are responsible for this crisis/invasion - the dems for carrying it to this level)
[ 06-11-2019, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: ukcatfannfl ]
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ukcatfannfl
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-11-2019 01:45 PM
Neither party has given a damn about illegal immigration for the past 50 years.
Trump won on being tough on illegal immigration. He has stood true to his word. Congress has stayed true to form, by acting like it is no big deal.
Had Trump not run, Hillary would be POTUS, the Supreme Court would be skewed liberal, and nobody would talking about those turds invading our country.
We needed a damn wall 50 years ago with a trench filled with pirhanas
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CatFanInYankeeville
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posted 06-11-2019 07:28 PM
I think Trump may be our last Republican POTUS, fellas. I've been thinking about this for some time, and I've heard it kicked about on some podcasts, but with the number of illegals, the idea that some states will throw their electoral votes behind whichever candidate wins the popular election, and the lack of ID requirements to cast a vote, I truly believe this is the end of the Republican president. He may win in '20, and I hope he does considering the candidates the left has put forth thus far, but I think Trump is the end of the line.
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“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian!” Henry Ford
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Tiptree
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posted 06-11-2019 07:50 PM
If the states bypass the electoral college to throw an election, our country is truly doomed. There is a very, very good reason not to have a nationwide popular vote for president, and it is as valid today as it was in 1781.
Sanctuary cities, states ignoring the electoral results, states who vote largess to illegal aliens just to snub our president, past presidents authorizing a 'star chamber' investigation using national intelligence agencies against a candidate, long, expensive Special Prosecutor investigation into a myth/lie, media perpetuating that lie even after it is revealed in order to foment discontent, people "resisting" a duly elected president... this is so absurd that one might think we are truly a civilization with a death wish.
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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CatFanInYankeeville
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posted 06-11-2019 10:02 PM
Tip, there's a lot of people who have exactly that...a death wish for our way of life. We've begun catering to the squeaky wheels, become afraid of offending the minority, started to go away from common sense in favor of extremism. It truly is a dark and dangerous road, and I'm not sure what's at the end, but I fear we're all going to find out in the next decade or 2.
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“Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the Government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian!” Henry Ford
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handycat
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Member # 2323
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posted 06-12-2019 09:17 AM
I believe we absolutely should keep the electorial college. I'm also willing to admit that some of that is because at this point in time it favors my conservative bias.
However, it is pretty frustrating living in a state, Illinois, that my vote for president is a total waste of time. Electorial votes for Illinois will always go to the Democratic candidate. You don't need to list the reasons why I should continue vote in the presidential election, I've heard them and understand them.
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Tiptree
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posted 06-12-2019 11:49 AM
Yes, but even though your vote is "wasted" in the deep blue wasteland of Illinois, keeping the granularity at the state level ensures that the apocalypse you described earlier doesn't happen. Small, lesser populated states like Kentucky will still have a voice as long as the electoral college exists.
Demographically, the urbanized, populous states swing democratic ("gimme my Obama phone!"), while the more rural, less urbanized states remain Republican. Even here in Indiana, Indianapolis, the "region" up by Chicago, and some of the old Rust Belt cities (like my town, Terre Haute) vote democrat, but the rest of the state votes Republican. As America continues to urbanize, more and more of the population will be in the teeming, democrat-leaning cities.
Already, the last few elections where a Republican president was elected only happened because of the electoral college; had it been a nationwide popular vote, neither Bush jr. nor Trump would have won. That trend will only continue to worsen. But, as even Kentucky and Indiana and the Deep South continue to see population moving to Louisville, Indianapolis, Atlanta, and other growing cities, eventually their Republican voices will be drowned out too. But for now, just say "NO" to getting rid of the electoral college!
Maybe we need to move from state-level aggregation of electoral votes to letting each congressional district send its representative to the Electoral College independently, without the state caucus. That might postpone the Death of the Republican Party for a few more years. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 06-12-2019, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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MountainMafia
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posted 06-12-2019 10:41 PM
It's not the republican party that's disappearing...it's republican orthodoxy.
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"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
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Tiptree
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posted 06-13-2019 04:52 AM
MM,
For Democrats, being the "progressive" party means they are free to shift and morph with fads and trends. Being "conservative" means you seek to adhere to certain principles that are considered ageless. In the tug of war between progressivism and conservatism, the best the conservatives can hope for is to slow down the move to the left. There have been almost no instances of reversing progressive programs or institutions, once established. Progressives pull us ever leftward; conservatives provide some inertia resisting that motion.
So, if the republicans abandon their "orthodoxy", then they cease to be conservative. And then, they will simply join the race to the left. There is a reason that the Republicans call themselves the "party of ideas"... at the core, they offer less government, not more. The progressive answer to society's ills is always some government program, from the New Deal, though the Great Society, and now the ludicrous "Green New Deal". Conservative solutions generally involve changes to incentives, free markets, and non-governmental initiatives.
So, let's hope the Republicans never abandon their orthodoxy; if they do, they will just become "Bud Light" to the Democrat's Budweiser.
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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SCWC
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posted 06-14-2019 12:00 PM
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It's not the republican party that's disappearing...it's republican orthodoxy. quote:
I don't think the current democrat candidates are going to do away with the republican party. All the announced candidates for POTUS as of now are wanting to make us a socialist country, that will not destroy the republican party, it will only make it stronger. This country is not ready for Socialism or Communism, what the democratic party are offering for 2020.
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MountainMafia
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posted 06-14-2019 01:32 PM
Tiptree:
quote:
So, let's hope the Republicans never abandon their orthodoxy; if they do, they will just become "Bud Light" to the Democrat's Budweiser.
I believe that ship has already sailed, Tiptree.
Core principles that define republican politics such as fiscal conservatism, free trade, global world order, strong NATO alliances, truth, and the rule of law have already fallen victim to hyper-partisanship and Donald Trump.
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"It's amazing what you can accomplish when nobody cares who gets the credit"....Tubby Smith after winning 1998 National Title.
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-20-2019 02:01 PM
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Koch Brothers main goal is amnesty for all illegals.
According to this article, the reason why the republicans don't support Trump on illegals is because the Koch brothers want amnesty and they put most of the republicans in office.
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Tiptree
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posted 06-20-2019 02:55 PM
They are Libertarians. Let me repost what I wrote above:
quote:
For example, the Koch brothers lean Libertarian. That means strict constitutionalism, fiscal conservatism, and near isolationism in foreign policy. They also generally reject social policies in the belief that it is impossible, if not immoral, to legislate morality unless there is either fraud or force involved -- this is the "Liberal" in "Libertarian". Libertarians also tend to favor free markets and free movement of labor, which often means easy work visas and paths to citizenship for immigrants.
Favoring paths to citizenship usually involves some form of amnesty; the question is when and what are the conditions. Once the border is secured and we have a rational immigration/work visa program, then we have to deal with tens of millions of illegal immigrants who have been in this country for years, mostly operating in a peaceful, productive manner as part of our communities. It is not an easy question as to what to do with them, but I am quite sure I know your opinion.
The positions that the Koch brothers have that will come into conflict with "most Republicans" and might seem to be similar to democrats would be on international affairs and social issues. Libertarians oppose almost all "morality laws", and favor ultra-free markets. The only laws that should apply are those that prevent "force or fraud". Murder, assault, theft, etc would still be illegal, but laws about drug use, sexual activities, etc. would be beyond the providence of government.
Their stance on immigration is similar. There should be no law prohibiting decent, law-abiding people who can come here and work from doing so. That isn't the same thing as "open borders", but it comes close. But it certainly doesn't include things like social welfare programs for immigrants.
The Koch brothers fund Republican candidates because the Libertarian party is so pathetic that is rarely has candidates of its own. Certainly, there is a lot of overlap between the Republican and Libertarian platforms, much more so than Democrats and Libertarians. Free Markets, limited government, halting the growth of the welfare state... these are all places where Libertarians and conservatives agree. Immigration and Foreign Policy? Not at all. Social issues? Not even close.
So, take the Koch brothers at face value -- Big Money Libertarians.
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Tiptree
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-20-2019 03:43 PM
I don't know much of what a libertarian is....but if it is for amnesty for illegal aliens then I am against every damn one of those libertarians.
[ 06-20-2019, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: boomdaddy ]
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boomdaddy
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posted 06-20-2019 03:46 PM
And some people hate that Trump uses tariffs. If the past administrations weren't a bunch of pansies, America wouldn't be in such lopsided trade deals or have ignored the unfair tariffs that other nations put on our goods and services.
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