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Author Topic: Box Score/Ky vs Seton Hall
SCWC
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posted 12-08-2018 02:42 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Box Score

We have no nba caliber guards on this team, a first for a Cal coached team. Keldon Johnson is out best player. Hagans acted like he had all all day with that last 9 second to go, walking ball down floor. A good Kentucky team would have killed this team. They played the last three minutes of regulation and overtime without three of their starters and we still could not beat them. I fear we are in for a very long season.

[ 12-09-2018, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

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ukman
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posted 12-08-2018 02:47 PM      Profile for ukman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Did we have a timeout left? That was a horrible last possession. I don't know how anyone on the floor would not know to drive the ball to the basket and force the d to foul, or kick out for an open shot. Settle for a terrible look at a 3. This game came down to really 1 thing: 3 point shooting. They has a guy that could hit them, and we had no one. We could easily lose 8-10 games this season if that doesn't improve. Oh yeah, and the turnovers.
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ProBlue
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posted 12-08-2018 02:48 PM      Profile for ProBlue   Email ProBlue   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hard to watch. I guess I will do like last year. I will record the game and if they win I might watch it.

[ 12-08-2018, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: ProBlue ]

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ProBlue

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SCWC
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posted 12-08-2018 02:49 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We just do not have the talent or basketball iq on this team. Hagans should still be playing high school basketball, he should never have reclassified. Walking the ball down the floor with 9 second to go and down 1 point. Poor decisions by players and coaching staff in this game.
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PaulCat
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posted 12-08-2018 02:54 PM      Profile for PaulCat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Hagans was completely lost on that last possession. And no one else seemed to try and do something either. All we needed was to get the ball in the paint with 9 seconds to go and we couldn't do that.

The last defensive possession was garbage, too. With all the switching we do, 2 or 3 passes and the opponent will have a wide-open three. Easy peasy.

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catmandoo
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posted 12-08-2018 02:58 PM      Profile for catmandoo   Email catmandoo   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Our starters went 3-17 from the 3 point line however we did go 24-30 on our free throws for 80%.

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http://www.ukfightsong.com/

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SCWC
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posted 12-08-2018 03:19 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That missed free throw by Hagans late cost us the game though. That would have put us up by three points so we would have had to go to a second overtime with their made three point shot which won the game for them. But then again, there were many lapses by this team that cost us the game, it was a total team loss.

[ 12-08-2018, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

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ukman
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posted 12-08-2018 03:26 PM      Profile for ukman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We are not a top 25 team right now. Poor guard play, no shooters. We do have some post play, but not enough to win games. If the shooting doesn't come around we will lose alot of games.
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Tiptree
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posted 12-08-2018 03:33 PM      Profile for Tiptree   Email Tiptree   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Shooting isn't what is killing us, although good shooting never hurts. Our defense just plain sucks.

I still try to keep perspective. After the Christmas holiday break, we will have a much better feel for the ultimate potential for this team. Basketball IQ, defense, turnovers... all can improve with sufficient coaching. Camp Cal is on the way!

[ 12-08-2018, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Tiptree ]

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Tiptree

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

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Tiptree
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posted 12-08-2018 03:39 PM      Profile for Tiptree   Email Tiptree   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
PJ sure did show up, and had a great game. KJ was solid, and Travis contributed as expected. But wow. The rest of the team was AWOL.

Never expected to lose this one. It will be a rocky December.

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Tiptree

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 13592 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
SCWC
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posted 12-08-2018 03:49 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
We have no speed at the guard position on this team. No one seems to be able to take their man off the dribble and that has always been a main stay of Cal coached teams. In all fairness to Hagans, he should be playing his senior year of high school and Cal had him in running the show on that last drive, don't make sense to me. I fear and have said this before today's loss, this is not going to be a very good Kentucky basketball team this year. Cal has to start getting three point shooters, that is what beat us today, a team that had three of their starters foul out with over 3 minutes to go in regulation and our best could not beat them. I personally think Travis hurts our team more than he helps, clogs up the middle too much and has no game beyond five feet of the basket. Cal is used to turning the ball over to his guards and letting them run the show for him, well, he does not have that caliber point guard this year and we can say he got lucky last year by getting a 4 star that turned out to be a lottery NBA pick. I don't see a lot of NBA material on our current team. And I will say, I hope they make me eat every word I just wrote about them as the season goes on, nothing would make me happier.
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Tiptree
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posted 12-08-2018 04:21 PM      Profile for Tiptree   Email Tiptree   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree. With the advent of the "one and done" era, Cal was the first to understand how to capitalize on it, and got the best recruits for his first 5-6 years. But once Duke and Kansas figured it out, we have had significantly worse recruiting results. Yes, we get our share of the top 20 recruits, but the true gems, the real difference-makers, end up elsewhere.

The solution is to either recruit solid 4-year players and win with experience, or build your team around solid shooters. Everything Cal teaches -- man-to-man defense, spacing and pick-and-roll/isolation offense is geared to prepare his players for the NBA. Which is fine if you actually have players that will end up in the league. But lately, we have far fewer of those. Cal needs to revert to coaching college basketball and not NBA principles.

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Tiptree

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

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Trey Ball
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posted 12-08-2018 04:47 PM      Profile for Trey Ball   Email Trey Ball   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just don't understand, especially with the way the game is played today, is how Kentucky very rarely has anyone that can shoot from the perimeter. If I were out recruiting that is all I would focus on.

Villanova has won two championships by basically having 5 shooters on the floor at all times. I'm a defensive guy myself normally, but I would sacrifice on the defensive end when recruiting anymore and focus on shooters and speed. UK is about the only Power Program that generally has one shooter on the floor at a time and a lot of the time it is no shooters.

This is probably looking like a 13 to 14 loss team at this point in time. I'm not sure how they can beat UNC/Louisville/Kansas/Tenn/Auburn/Miss State. Since they have Ten/Auburn/Miss State each twice that is 9 additional losses right there alone.

Cal has his work cut out for him. You pretty much have to start running the offense through Johnson and PJ. I still think Montgomery needs to be on the floor. I know he has not shown at lot, but I believe he can put the ball in the basket if they put him in the right position on the floor. His is awful on the defensive end, but so are the rest of the bigs as well. I think those three guys need to be putting up between 40 to 50 shots a game between them. Herro is struggling with his shot just as I thought he would from watching his high school tape. They have had to speed his release and that is leading to poor mechanics. Hopefully if he keeps working on it they shots will start falling, but he is really questioning his shot and you can tell by just watching him on the floor.

[ 12-08-2018, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: Trey Ball ]

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Wife's Mad. Told me we never talk anymore. And just last nite while watching super bowl told her 2 or 3 times to get me a coke and popcorn. Also told her not to forget to take out trash in the morning. Ain't that something. Also told me I was too indecisive. Can't figure out what to do about that. One nice thing I guess. She called me a pro crastinator. Don't know what a crastinator is but I guess I'm a good one for her to call me a pro. Gonna wait til tomorrow to look that up though. I love her but somrtimes can't help but thinking I should have told uncle Junior to keep his coon hound pup and stevens double barrel and also his youngest daughter.

redbone

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PaulCat
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posted 12-08-2018 04:52 PM      Profile for PaulCat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Outside shooting IS killing us. Our guards are combined 31% outside the arc. Teams can just sit back and let us shoot from the outside. Our poor outside shooting is our opponents' best defense.
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Tiptree
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posted 12-08-2018 06:36 PM      Profile for Tiptree   Email Tiptree   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Trey, I agree. Great college basketball teams are often built around a bevy of shooters. But Cal has been coaching NBA principles to prepare his guys for the draft -- his stated highest purpose. He is not coaching his team as if it is a college team. And, without sure-fire NBA talent, his method is crashing into reality.

You mention shooters. We have none. Others mention running off screens. We don't do that. Still others mention running set plays. We don't do that.

In fact, we do almost nothing offensively that would put our players in a position to succeed as a college team. The goal is to showcase individual NBA skills, which are different. Thus, the pick-and-roll, the isolation, the lob are the staples of our offense.

I would love to see us have a college team again. Cal had a great run as long as he was getting the 2 or 3 guys per class that were the difference makers, the sure-fire lottery picks. With guys like Anthony Davis, or John Wall, or Boogie, or Carl Anthony-Towns, or D'aaron Fox, you can run your team through them and sheer talent will take you far. Now we get NBA-bound players, but few high lottery picks. Without them, Cal's methods will lose to solid, veteran, well-coached college teams.

BTW, the best shooter Cal ever had, Devon Booker, came off the bench. Look at his NBA career, and you have to shake your head and wonder...

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Tiptree

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

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SCWC
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posted 12-08-2018 08:19 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cal is more interested in getting players to the NBA than he is winning games for UK, at least that is the way I feel. He is getting out recruited by Duke and other schools for the top talent and without top talent, he is just a mediocre bench coach. He has to have great guards who can be coaches on the floor for him and with this team, it appears he does not have that. I am concerned for the future of UK basketball unless Cal changes his recruiting habits a starts running a three point offense ratner than his traditional dribb le drive for which he does not have the guard talent to run this season. He is still more concerned about getting players to the NBA than he is winning national championships for his employer in my humble opinion.

And as Tiptree pointed out, our best three point shooter during the Cal era was Booker who was a bench player. That was by far Cal's best team that lost to a soso Wisconsin team with some aid from official John Higgins during the Wisconsin semi final game

I am one that has never felt that Cal develops talent, that he gets it through recruiting and he has not excelled in that department over the past couple of years. Duke is getting all the top recruits for some reason or another.

This team have very few three point shooters, lack a rim protector inside and a consistent inside game and unless something drastic happens over the next two weeks, we are in for a mediocre season by UK standards.

Looking ahead, my biggest fear is that we will go into conference play with an 8 and 4 record, winning against Utah at home but losing to U of L away and North Carolina on a neutral court. We are just plain short of front and backcourt talent this season in my opinion.

[ 12-08-2018, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

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Trey Ball
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posted 12-08-2018 09:32 PM      Profile for Trey Ball   Email Trey Ball   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tip,

JMO, but the NBA is all about spacing, ball movement, and shooting the 3 point shot now. The Warriors success has made playing through the post irrelevant. Which is exactly where Villanova and Duke have gone with there teams in recent years.

Cal almost has gone the opposite IMO. He is trying to run his offense through the post like the old college game.

I will say this and I have no qualms with it. Cal's players are always the most prepared for the NBA game from a defensive perspective and how to share the ball. GM's and coaches comment it about it all the time if you watch the NBA. He just needs to evolve and keep them prepared there and prepare them offensively as well.

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Wife's Mad. Told me we never talk anymore. And just last nite while watching super bowl told her 2 or 3 times to get me a coke and popcorn. Also told her not to forget to take out trash in the morning. Ain't that something. Also told me I was too indecisive. Can't figure out what to do about that. One nice thing I guess. She called me a pro crastinator. Don't know what a crastinator is but I guess I'm a good one for her to call me a pro. Gonna wait til tomorrow to look that up though. I love her but somrtimes can't help but thinking I should have told uncle Junior to keep his coon hound pup and stevens double barrel and also his youngest daughter.

redbone

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Tiptree
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posted 12-09-2018 12:36 PM      Profile for Tiptree   Email Tiptree   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good points, Trey. Certainly, the Warriors have changed the game in the NBA. And it has always been about spacing, but now it is more about shooting than interior play.

My point is that we don't have a team like the Warriors, nor do we have any likely lottery picks on this squad. As of today, our best pro prospect is PJ, and he is such a tweener that unless he can improve his handle and show he can be more versatile, he may slide to the 2nd round. And he is our best prospect. Without the kind of talent that can simply overwhelm opponents, Cal's system is crashing. Why not put in some sort of 'old school' college-style offense? I think this team could play a motion offense (NOT the dribble drive variant, but more like Princeton or even the old IU motion). Maybe play some zone/full court to hide our defensive liabilities. Do SOMETHING that doesn't require a team full of future NBA first-rounders, because we have none!

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Tiptree

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

Posts: 13592 | From: Terre Haute, IN | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged
SCWC
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posted 12-09-2018 01:02 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Tiptree, I agree totally with your points on this topic. The three point shot has done more to change the way the college game is played today than anything since the shot clock originated.

[ 12-09-2018, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: SCWC ]

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Trey Ball
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posted 12-09-2018 05:01 PM      Profile for Trey Ball   Email Trey Ball   Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Tiptree:
My point is that we don't have a team like the Warriors, nor do we have any likely lottery picks on this squad. As of today, our best pro prospect is PJ, and he is such a tweener that unless he can improve his handle and show he can be more versatile, he may slide to the 2nd round.

I don't disagree that we don't have that type of team. I'm just not sure why Cal hasn't moved to recruiting shooters, since that is what the NBA now values more than anything else, because we can all agree Cal wants to get his guys drafted.

Off of the team topic. Keldon Johnson is the the best pro prospect IMO. He may slip out of the lottery if Cal cannot figure out a way to showcase his best strength which is driving the ball to the rim. The lane is so clogged since we have no shooters that he is driving into three defenders. His outside shot hasn't been falling, but the mechanics are there. No way he slips past the first 20 picks.

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Wife's Mad. Told me we never talk anymore. And just last nite while watching super bowl told her 2 or 3 times to get me a coke and popcorn. Also told her not to forget to take out trash in the morning. Ain't that something. Also told me I was too indecisive. Can't figure out what to do about that. One nice thing I guess. She called me a pro crastinator. Don't know what a crastinator is but I guess I'm a good one for her to call me a pro. Gonna wait til tomorrow to look that up though. I love her but somrtimes can't help but thinking I should have told uncle Junior to keep his coon hound pup and stevens double barrel and also his youngest daughter.

redbone

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SCWC
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posted 12-09-2018 05:12 PM      Profile for SCWC     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kelden Johnson is our leading scorer with a 15.2 pt average. He also averages 6 rebounds per game. Compare him to Reid Travis who only averages 6.8 rebounds per game and he lives under the basket and many of his rebounds come off missed free throws by other teams. I don't see Travis making an NBA roster and unless he gets some consistency to his game, PJ Washington will not be a first round NBA draft pick. Johnson and Washington are the only two players we have that could go in the first round of the NBA draft as of right now.
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PaulCat
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posted 12-10-2018 01:13 PM      Profile for PaulCat     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SCWC:
And as Tiptree pointed out, our best three point shooter during the Cal era was Booker who was a bench player.

Doron Lamb was better than Booker.

But Booker was no slouch. [Smile]

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